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Color Clues Prologue
A prologue to the film "Color Cues for Better Living" (FFS-AA1075), introducing the audience to the needs for color in the home. FI on Irma Deutreaux, color consultant for the O'Brien Paint Corporation. She is seated at a table with displays of fabrics, books and paint samples. She addresses the audience on the subject of decorating your home. She discusses "loading" a paint by adding extra pigments, and shows samples. Dissolve to color wheel formed by paint pigments blending in a wheel. Dissolve to color samples filling the screen. Dissolve to manuals and booklets for the customer. Chip board, showing actual paint swatches. Book of color schemes, the pages being flipped. Back to the decorator. FO.
August 1, 1994 - Part 7
(20:25:22) Ms. HANSON. Absolutely. When Ms. Kulka came on board, every decision, every discussion, should have been between Mr. Altman and Ellen Kulka. The problem, sir, was that Mr. Altman bad a limited number of hours in his day, just like we all do, and he ph ically was unable to interface with all of the people that be needed to. What tended to happen, and as some of my testimony indicates people were called, Treasury people, to get information to Mr. Alt! man and Mr. Altman would talk with Treasury people to give infor- mation to the RTC. It was a difficult situation and, frankly, nobody was very happy about it, but it was work that needed to be done and we aid it. Senator BRYAN. Perhaps it's a hybrid that we need to revisit. I note that my time is up. Let me just-I've been critical in some of my observations, but I think we need to put this in some perspective as well. As I see the record, as I read it, and as I bear the testimony, I think, although a number of errors in judgment were made, in the final analysis the record is clear that neither the President, nor anybody in this Administration, did, in fact, interfere with the RTC insofar as its referral process or any investigative aspect relating to Whitewater. I think that that is important for me to say as well as being critical. I yield back to the Chair. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Bryan. Again yielding on the Republican side, I'm following the instruction of Senator D'Amato as to where be wants their time block to go, and be wants it to be assigned to Senator Gramm. Senator GRAMM. Ms. Hanson, this is the last time that we're going to get to bear from you, and I want to be sure we have all the relevant questions asked, I guess it is obvious, from everything we've heard, that the September 29, 1993, meeting was the first meeting that you ever had with the White House about this subject? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator GRAMM. I think this is a very important point, did Mr. Altman tell you to have that meeting? Ms. HANSON. Yes, sir. Senator GRAMM. Did you, ever 'hold a meeting with Mr. Nussbaum, or anybody that high at the White House, without specific instructions from Mr. Altman to have such a meeting? Ms. HANSON. On a subject like this, sir, no. Senator GRAMM. So it would have been totally out of the realm of possibility that you would have gone over to the White House to talk to the President I s Counsel, about a subject like this, without 151 Mr. Altman having said to you, "Ms. Hanson, go over there and talk to the people at the White House"---as it turned out, there were a whole bunch of them there. There is no possibility that you would have ever done that without Mr. Altman's explicit, direct instructions? Ms. HANSON. As I sit here, sir, I can't recall every conversation that I have ever had with anyone in the White House, but, certain on an issue like this one, I would not have done it without Mr. Altman's authorization. Senator GRAMM. We know since--and you have seen it and you've forgotten writing it and, believe me, I forget lots of letters I sign every day, so I'm not trying to make a big point out of it, but we know that, on September 30, 1993, you sent Mr. Altman a memo in which you say that you have spoken to the Secretary, and that you've talked to Mr. Nussbaum and Mr. Sloan. So Mr. Altman told you to go. To the best of your knowledge, given that you looked at the memo, it had your signature on it, and it the kind of memo you would have written regarding subjects that you would have written memos on, to the best of your knowledge, having seen this memo, your testimony is, that he not only told you to go, but that you gave him hard copy that you had gone! Ms. HANSON. That's how I interpret that memo, yes, sir. Senator GRAMM. At the meeting on October 14, 1993-this is the second fall meeting-did Roger Altman tell you to go to that meeting, or did you tell him you were going to that meeting? Ms. HANSON. I don't recall discussing that meeting with Mr. Altman. Senator GRAMM. Is it likely you would have gone to the White House for this meeting without telling him? Ms. HANSON. I believe-it was my understanding, sir, that meeting was simply to discuss press inquiries that were being received at the Treasury. I was asked to go by Mr. Steiner, Mr. DeVore, or both of them, both senior Treasury officials, and I wouldn't necessarily have gotten-sought specific permission from Mr. Altman to do that.
August 1, 1994 - Part 7
(20:30:33) Senator GRAMM. I guess I'm puzzled about your role in press releases-I mean, press leaks. You're the General Counsel. I know it's Your job to be sure that people at the Treasury are complying with the law. How did you get this job, as a key input, on this press leak issue? Ms. HANSON. As I say, I was asked-I was given this information unsolicited. I understand Mr. Altman asked Mr. Roelle to give this information to me. I gave the information to Mr. Altman. He asked me to speak with Mr. Nussbaum. Mr. Nussbaum, as I stated and as I understood,' was the appropriate contact person in the White House, with respect to investigations, so he would have been the right person to talk to. Senator GRAMM. Investigations or press leaks? Ms' HANSON. This was a press leak that also related to an investigation. Senator GRAmm. At the meeting of February 2, 1994, at which Mr. Altman was present, you talked about a lot of issues. Obviously we know of the two that have been mentioned. At that meeting , to the best of your memory, did anyone ever casually, tangen- 152 tially, or in any way mention the meeting of September 29 1 or the meeting of October 14, 19939 Ms. HANSON. On February 2, 1994? Senator GRAmm. Yes. Ms. HANSON. No, sir. Senator GRAMM. A very relevant issue, it seems to me is'' Mr. Altman wrote to us on March 2, 1994. He said, "I have' le today, of two conversations which did take place between Treasury staff and the White House." He says that in his March 2, 194 letter. Now, you tell us that he told you to go to the White House for the September meeting. You have verified that this is your memo to him, after you came back, that it has your initials on it, and the kind of memo you would have written. So there were at two contacts with Mr. Altman regarding the September meeting One, he told you to go and, two, when you came back you gave this memo. Did you ever talk to him about the meeting on Sep ber 29, 1993, or the meeting on October 14, 1993? Senator GRAMM. Yes. At any time prior to his testimony? Ms. HANSON. I don't recall ever having a conversation with him about the October 14, 1993, meeting one way or the other. I don't recall having a conversation with him about the September 29, 1993, meeting, although, as I've testified, my September 30, 1993, memorandum was located. At the time that the March 2, 1994, let- ter was written, the statement that he made was consistent with my recollection at the time. We've gone over these questions. Senator GRAmm. Ms. Hanson, let me stop you right there because this is a different issue. Mr. Altman writes, here in his letter, that he has just learned "today" of these two meetings. He just' learned "today," that's what this says. You say that be sent you to the first of the two meetings, and we have a memo that you gave him telling him that you went and, basically what happened. You saw this letter, did you ever say to him, "Mr. Altman, you told me to go to the first meeting, and I sent you a memo on that meeting. How can you write a letter to this Committee of Congress, saying you just found out about it today?" Did you ever raise that issue with him? Ms. HANSON. Sir, at the time that letter was written, that statement was consistent with my recollection. I have testified that it wasn't until after that letter that I-as I worked on the process of recalling what had happened last fall-that I recalled that I had a conversation with him about it and that he sent me. It wasn't until the search for the documents, in response to the Independent Counsel's subpoena, that the September 30, 1993, memo was located, and I have no recollection, independent recollection, as I sit here now, of having written it, although it is clear to me that I did. At the time Mr. Altman wrote that letter, it was consistent with my recollection of the matter and I will tell you, that is a good ex- ample of why trying to deal with things piecemeal, rather than dealing with them in an orderly fashion, can be a problem.
August 1, 1994 - Part 7
(20:35:26) Senator GRAMM. Ms. Hanson, you've 1 already said to us that you would have never gone to this September 29, 1993, meeting save a direct order by Mr. Altman. How could you, then, think that he did not know about the meeting? I forget a lot of things, but I don't 153 forget there are some things, that are extraordinary enough, that I would not do unless somebody told me to do them. I wouldn't forget they had told me to do them. Ms. HANSON. Sir, that letter was put together very quickly, late in the day, in response-and it dealt, only, with the responses to Senator Bond's questions. As I stated, we had several conference calls with Jack DeVore on March 2, 1994, trying to even remember why the October 14, 1993, meeting had taken place and who was there. We had just not thought about it for a very long time. I had not thought about it, seriously, for a very long time. Senator GRAmm. Ms. Hanson Senator SASSER. Mr. Chairman, I hate to interrupt the Senator, but many of us are waiting to do our questioning and when we- Senator GRAmm. I'll come back when it's our turn. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sasser makes a good point, and I appreciate your desisting. I would hope that, in the remainder of the evening if we can we're going to try to stick to the lights. It would be helpful if everybody would Keep track of it, on both sides, so that I don't have to interrupt, because I prefer not to, but I will if we run much over. Senator BOXER. Mr. Chairman, I hope you will stick to the lights and then we can all stay late, those of us who want to stay late. I'm willing to stay Senator GRAmm. If you'll just tap your gavel-what happens is you start looking at your notes and you're not looking at the lights. The CHAIRMAN. I understand. It's happened on both sides. That's a fair way to do it. Senator Moseley-Braun. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm only chuckling, Mr. Chairman, for Senator Murray and myself This is our first round, and you just went to the light system, for real, on our first round. And it's OK. It's all right, We understand. I just want to clarify, for the record, with Ms. Hanson. Ms. Hanson, as General Counsel for the Department of Treasury, you did not have any direct role with regard to the RTC. Is that correct? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator MOSELEY-BRAuN. So, with regard to the seven conversations and all of these involvements that you have regarding RTC matters, there was a clear blurring of the lines of responsibility? Ms. HANSON. As I've stated, Mr. Altman had the statutory authority to utilize Treasury personnel and had the statutory authorit ity, as the RTC CEO, to use that personnel. I, from my perspective, always considered myself to be acting in my capacity as General Counsel to the Treasury. That's the only capacity that I had. Senator MOSELEY-BRAuN. That is correct, but under the law, section 1441-A, when a member borrows an employee from another agency, it suggests that that is a---that's a specific act. In fact, it provides for reimbursement, as I recollect, of those borrowed appointiees. In that regard, bad you had a conversation with Mr. Altman that he was borrowing you from Treasury for purposes of your work on RTC-related matters? Ms. HANSON. No one considered it in those terms. The difficulty was that there were-it is difficult to parse all the various activi- 154 ties that people were involved in. As I stated, I was not involved in case-specific matters, I was not involved in day day-to-day operations. I was involved in specific things that Mr. Altman asked me to do. As Mr. Roelle stated earlier today, in fact--if I may just finish, Senator-as Mr. Roelle stated earlier today, the Treasury peo- ple were involved in policy issues. Policy issues are within in province of the oversight board. The oversight board has the authority to utilize personnel, whether on a reimbursable or other basis. So, from my perspective, as I thought about it, the amount of time that I felt that I was actually spending in other than policy matters was small.
August 1, 1994 - Part 7
(20:40:28) Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. But, Ms. Hanson, and recognizing again, there are procedures for the oversight board to bon em- ployees, there are procedures for the RTC to borrow employees' gut, in the absence of a conversation with Mr. Altman regarding borrowing your services with regard to RTC matters, didn't you ' think it a little unusual that Mr. Roelle would call you about a criminal referral for the RTC? Ms. HANSON. No, I didn't think it was unusual. Mr. Altman had asked him to call me. As I stated, there were a limited number of Treasury people who assisted in this. This was known-many Of the responsibilities I was given were approved, directly or indirectly, by Secretary Bentsen. So no, I didn't. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Are you suggesting that Secretary Bentsen approved your activities with regard to the RTC? Ms. HANSON. In some of them-in terms of some of the policy areas that I was involved in, they were approved, directly or indirectly, by Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. But with regard to- Ms. HANsON. Secretary Bentsen was aware of what I was doing. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. But, with regard to case-specific activities for the RTC, you had the explicit or the assumed approval, first, of Mr. Altman and, then, of the Secretary? I would like your answer to the question, did you, have Ms. HANSON. Let me back up to say I bad very limited involvement in an anything that was case-specific, and I think that is consist in ent with what Mr. Roelle said this morning. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. You use the word "parsing." Did it occur to you, in your role as General Counsel for the Treasury, that there might be an ethical problem with the blurring of these lines? Ms. HANSON. No. Senator, it didn't. Senator MOSELEY-BRAuN. Second, with regard to your participation in the meetings, when you attended the meetings, in what capacity did you attend those meetings, in what capacity did you think you were attending those meetings? Ms. HANSON. I attended them in my capacity as General Counsel to the Treasury. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Did you think that it was appropriate to discuss specific case issues before the RTC wearing your General Counsel of the Treasury hat? Ms. HANsON. The only conversations that I had) that were at all case-specific, were-the only conversation was my conversation with Mr. Nussbaum, which was authorized by Mr. Altman and related to press leaks that Mr. Nussbaum was going to have to deal 155 with. It was a legitimate governmental purpose, and the Office of Government Ethics, who has looked at this, has said that it was a legitimate governmental purpose as long as I wasn't trying-as long as I wasn't advancing a private interest, which I wasn't. They found no evidence, nothing to conclude that there was even-there was anything that would advance a private interest. Consequently, there wasn't a problem doing that. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. But the information that was discussed at that meeting was nonpublic information. Is that correct? Ms. HANSON. It was nonpublic-to my knowledge, my specific knowledge at that time it was. However, it was-it either had leaked to the press-to & public, or was imminently going to leak. Senator MosELEY-BRAUN. But imminent became a month later, the first reports of this referral didn't come until a month later? Ms. HANSON. As I stated earlier, the chronology that was prepared by the Inspectors General, that just became public yesterday, says their first entry is September 23, 1993, that says that, Mr. Dudine, who is the rector of the Office of Investigation s-and he refers to a reporter who is getting close to something about the criminal referrals, That was a week before my conversation. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Again, to ask the question, did you have any concern at all, or did you discuss with Mr. Nussbaum or with Mr. Altman any concerns, about the propriety of your participating in meetings regarding this nonpublic information given your role as Treasury Counsel? Ms. HANSON. The fact that I was a Treasury Counsel?
August 1, 1994 - Part 7
(20:45:27) Senator MOSELEY-BRAuN. Did you have any discussions with anyone regarding the propriety of your playing this role---I mean, you weren't RTC Counsel but you were playing a role that was Ms. HANsoN. I was asked by Mr. Altman to play this role. He ism superior. my Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. OK, but you didn't have- MS. HANSON. I believed then, and I believe now, that it was the appropriate thing to do. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Can you just-but did you have any concern, or did you have any discussion with anyone around-concerning- the propriety- Ms. HANSON. No I didn't. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. -of what you were doing? OK. The CHAIRMAN. I think, you know, she's Senator MOSELEY-BRAuN. She did now. The CHAIRMAN. I think she's made it clear that she doesn'tshe's on the other side of that point, and makes it very clear. Senator Hatch. Senator HATCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Hanson, here I am. Let me turn to the February 2, 1994, meeting at the White House in which Roger Altman informed White ouse officials that he was recusing himself from the RTC's decision to pursue a civil action in Madison Guaranty. It's correct, it., that Bernie-Bernie Nussbaum, who was then the White House Counsel, was very concerned over who at the RTC would be making the decisions in the Madison Guaranty matter if Roger Alt an recused himself? Ms. HANSON. lie did ask. He did ask, yes. 156 Senator HATCH. So, he was concerned. It's also correct, isn't it that Mr. Nussbaum was particularly concerned that Ms. Kulka, the new General Counsel at RTC, would be making the decision on whether to pursue a civil action? Is that a fair characterization? Ms, HANSON. He said that she was tough. Senator HATCH. Mr. Nussbaum didn't express any concerns about Ms. Kulka's professional skills, did he? Ms. HANSON. No. Senator HATCH. He didn't express any concerns about her integrity ? Ms. HANSON. No. Senator HATCH. Instead, Mr. Nussbaum's was concern that Ms..,. Kulka was a tough lawyer. Right? Ms. HANSON. That's what he said. Senator HATCH. He didn't view her as a patsy, in other words Ms. HANSON. That's right. Senator HATCH. He said his judgement was based on her work as a Government lawyer when he was in private practice. Isn't that correct? Ms. HANSON. That's what I understood, yes. Senator HATCH. So it's fair to say Mr. Nussbaum's objection to Ms. Kulka was that she was tough in representing the interests of the Government and the American people against private persons who engaged in alleged wrongdoing that cost the American taxpayers lots of money. Ms. HANSON. I understood that be had worked with her when she was with the Office of Thrift Supervision, yes. Senator HATCH. Mr. Nussbaum, at that time, raised his voice and became somewhat emotional. Isn't that true? Ms. HANSON. Mr. Nussbaum did raise his voice, at the beginning, but he's an animated person. Senator HATCH. While he was raising the objections about Ms. Kulka, that's when he raised his voice? Ms. HANSON. When be was asking questions about Ms. Kulka, yes. Senator HATCH. At the end of this meeting on February 2, 19940 Mr. Nussbaum pulled you aside and asked you who made this decision to hire Ms. Kulka as General Counsel of the RTC. Right? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. He told you that he should be consulted in the hiring decision. Wasn't that right? Ms. HANSON. That's right. Senator HATCH. He felt that the decision, on who was to be RTC General Counsel, was one that he should have made, or at least had some part in. Ms. HANSON. That's not what I understood. But that he was I understood that he was to have been consulted. Senator HATCH. It was part of his White House turf is the way I would interpret that. Ms. HANSON. I don't know how to interpret it. Senator HATCH. That's fine. It's true, isn't it, Mr. Nussbaum called you again the following day, on February 3, 1994, and asked you how Ms. Kulka had been hired, asked you again. MS. HANSON. That's correct. 157 Senator HATCH. The very next day, February 4, 1994, Mr. Nuss. baum again telephoned you regarding the scope of the charter of Special Counsel Fiske in the Madison Guaranty/Whitewater matter. Ms. HANSON. Yes, he called me to say that it was available, to make sure that I knew it was available. Senator HATCH. Incidentally, it hadn't been the typical case that he called you daily before then, had it? Ms. HANSON. No, sir. Senator HATCH, But he was calling you daily, at that time, as, we've discussed. MS. HANSON. Right, during the limited period we are discussing, that is, February 3 and 4, 1994. Senator HATCH. In this telephone call about the charter of the Special Counsel, Mr. Nussbaum pointed out to you that the charter could be read to give the Special Counsel authority to pursue civil actions in Madison Guaranty. Isn't that so? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. Mr. Nussbaum suggested to you that Mr. Altman might want to take this into account in determining how to proceed with the RTC investigation? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. You understood, from this series of contacts with Mr. Nussbaum, that Mr. Nussbaum thought it preferable to have Mr. Fiske, rather than Ms. Kulka, have jurisdiction over the decision whether or not to pursue a civil action on behalf of the RTC against the persons affiliated with Madison Guaranty?
Vacation Days
Robert M. Altman Presents Vacation Days in Colorado. Shot from moving car of rocky valley, then MS woman writing. Shots of storm clouds. MS girls in dude ranch clothing getting ready for rain. 02:32:35 Man feeding chipmunks who crawl up his leg. More scenery shots, horseback riding. 02:35:42 CU plaque for Land o Peaks Ranch, scenes of kids in mock-Indian garb at teepee and making smoke signals. 02:39:28 CU book cover, The Spell of the Rockies, and a young hand turns the pages (we see that it s Flora Louise s book). People dancing, including two women in horse riding breeches and boots. Kids float on raft in small body of water, try to keep their balance, and get off just in time. 02:41:20 MS man cooking on camp fire, people drinking from canteens and eating. 02:42:48 WS cows on farm, farmer with kid, and young cows in pen. 02:43:40 MS 3 girls with buckets ready to milk them cows, and rather dim shots of them doing so. Girl playing with dog, standing on her head. 02:51:34 title says Flora Louise Altman, March 21st 1927. Curtain rises on figurine holding a Robert M Altman Presents card, various takes of this. 02:52:17 CU barely legible title, Turkey Run 1932. People on a suspension footbridge, walking, hiking. They climb up wooden ladders and down again.
August 1, 1994 - Part 7
(20:50:26) Ms. HANSON. He didn't state a preference, sir. He brought it to my attention and suggested that it be brought to Mr. Altman's attention. Senator HATCH. But, again, at that time, Mr. Nussbaum expressed his concern to you that Ms. Kulka was tough. Ms. HANSON. That was in the meeting on February 2, 1994. Senator HATCH. It's true, isn't it, that you pass on to Mr. Altman Mr. Nussbaum's suggestion that the Special Counsel should be, or could be, given jurisdiction over the RTC civil claims? Ms. HANsON. There was a question as to whether the Independent Counsel's charter covered the RTC Senator HATCH. Right, but you passed that on to Mr. Altman? Ms. HANSON. Yes, I did. Senator HATCH. As of February 4, 1994, Mr. Nussbaum and Mr. Altman understood that the statute of limitations on RTC civil actions would expire on February 28, 1994. Right? Ms. HANSON. That's right. Senator HATCH. You called Ms. Kulka the next morning? Ms. HANSON. I did. Senator HATCH. That was Saturday, February 5, 1994? Ms. HANSON. That's In ' right. Senator HATCH. You telephoned Ms. Kulka at home. Right? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. You told her that Mr. Nussbaum had proposed that Mr. Fiske might take over the RTC civil action, didn't you? MS. HANSON. What I recall, of that conversation, was that there was a question as to what the Independent Counsel's charter 158 meant and what the terms-because it said-as I recall it, and I don't have it in front of me-criminal or civil cases, and there war, a question as to what the "or civil" referred to Senator HATCH. But Nussbaum bad said that Fiske could take over the civil action. Ms. HANSON. No, that's not my recollection. He just brought it to- my recollection is that he just brought it to my attention, Senator HATCH. Isn't it true that Ms. Kulka reminded you that you and she had already spoken to Mr. Fiske on a prior occasion? Ms. HANSON. I had never spoken with Mr. Fiske, sir. She had spoken with Mr. Fiske. Senator HATCH. I see. You and Ms. Kulka, or at least Ms. Kulka discussed with him the scope of the investigation. Is that correct? Ms. HANSON. I don't know, exactly, what Ms. Kulka discussed with Mr. Fiske. Senator HATCH. In your February 5, 1994, phone call-let me just read from page 421, Counselor, in your answer, you said, "Ms. Kulka had, an I had, spoken with Mr. Fiske on a prior occasion, Mr. Fiske, the Independent Counsel. And she said it was her impression from speaking with Mr. Fiske, that be was not interested in taking jurisdiction over the RTC civil investigation." Ms. HANSON. Is that from my Senator HATCH. That's, from your Ms. HANSON. I haven haven bad an opportunity to review it, but I think, if you read that through again, it's clear that the "and/or I" is not right, because that's a conversation that she had, that she's telling me about. Senator HATCH. Fine. In your February 5, 1994, phone call, I believe Ms. Kulka told you, it was her impression, that Mr. Fiske would not be interested in pursuing the civil claims. Ms. HANSON. Yes. Senator HATCH. You telephoned Mr. Nussbaum on February 8, 1994. Is that right? Ms. HANSON. On an unrelated matter, and thanked him for having brought the charter to my attention. Senator HATCH. At the time you called him, you, were of the view that the RTC civil case would not be handed over to Mr. Fiske. Isn't that correct? Ms. HANSON. I don't recall that I discussed it with him in that telephone call. It was my understanding, from speaking with Ms. Kulka, that Mr. Fiske had indicated to her that he-a disinclination to take the RTC civil investigation, even if his jurisdiction was sufficiently broad to cover it. Senator HATCH. But you conveyed your viewpoint to Mr. Nussbaum? Ms. HANSON. I don't recall that I did. Senator HATCH. Am I out of The CHAIRMAN. We're going to try to stick to the lights here. I don't want to foreclose. Do you have a follow-up question just to this? Senator HATCH. I have a number of them that would be followup. Senator DAmATo. I'll yield to you later. The CHAiRmAN. Senator Murray. 159 Senator MURRAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Hanson, earlier today, Stephen Katsanos, who's the Communications Director of the RTC, suggested that you had sent the September 30 1993, Early Bird, and a cover memo, to the White House. I have that memo here, and it's directed to Mr. Altman. Did you also send it to the White House? Ms. HANSON. No, I did not. I did send an Early Bird to the White House at some point. I don't recall which one it was, but I, certainly, didn't send the memo to the White House. Senator MURRAY. You did not send this memo to the White House? Ms. HANSON. No, I did not. Senator MURRAY. Do you know why Mr. Katsanos said that you did?
August 1, 1994 - Part 7
(20:55:06) Ms. HANSON. I don't know. He may be mistaken. He must have been mistaken, because I know I did not. Senator MURRAY. Ms. Hanson, did you ever brief congressional staff on Madison, Senate staff? Ms. HANSON. No. I spoke with Senator Riegle, and his staff, on February 10, 1994, 1 believe. We were talking about a possible permanent CEO, and we had a conversation about the statute of limitations operation. And, I recall, we also talked briefly about whether-about Mr. Altman and the fact that he was-felt be could be impartial and was going to stay and Senator MURRAY. In that briefing, you, use the same talking points that Roger Altman used in his February 2, 1994, meeting? Ms. HANSON. No, I did not. Senator MURRAY. Finally, Mr. Chairman, I really agree with Ms. HANSON. No-if I could just clarify. I used--they were not the, identical, talking points that I used in-that Mr. Altman used in the February 2, 1994, meeting. They were, however, almost identical. They had-because they had been modified, for my use, to just talk about the statute of limitations issue, so yes, they were almost identical. Senator Mup-RAY. Would it be correct to say that information provided at the February 2, 1994, meeting was being shared elsewhere, specifically, in Congress or congressional briefings? Ms. HANSON. It's my understanding that was correct yes. Senator MURRAY. I tend to agree with my friend, Senator Bennett, who said a little earlier, 'If these meetings hadn't occurred, we wouldn't have to hold these hearings." I wish those meetings hadn't occurred, and I think my family, at this point, wishes they hadn't as well, but I understand the motivation. I think I know what it's like. I think we all do, when a press story is shaped by leaks and the inclination is to coordinate a response. If you hadn't met, we'd probably all be criticizing the Administration for being disorganized. Let me ask you the one, really, relevant question here. Have you, Ms. Hanson, ever done anything, anything whatsoever, to impede or derail an investigation at the RTC or the Department of Justice? Ms. HANSON. Never. Senator MURRAY. To be complete, are you aware of anybody who is responsible for derailing or impeding an investigation into Madison? 160 Ms. HANSON. No. Senator MURRAY. Do you know of anybody or have you yourself ever seen the criminal referrals? Ms. HANSON. I have never seen the criminal referrals. Senator MURRAY. Thank you. Mr. Chairman from MY unique perspective way down here, it seems to me that the chairs are getting empty and the yawns are getting larger so I'II yield back my time. The CHAIRMAN. Do I understand you need to take a short break? Ms. HANSON. Yes. The Chairman. I don't want your lawyer deciding it. I want you deciding it, and there's a big difference between the two. I mean, I'd gotten an indication that you needed one, but if that's his thinking not yours, we're going to continue, no disrespect to him. Ms. HANSON. Let's continue for a few minutes. The CHAiRMAN. Very good. Senator Hatch, you're re going to finish your line of questioning now. Senator HATCH. I'll try to finish this time. Ms. Hanson, when we finished before, you had called Mr. Nussbaum on February 8, 1994, and I wasn't quite sure what your answer was, but as I understand it, at the time you called him, you were of the view, personally, that the RTC civil case would not be handed over to Mr. Fiske at that time. Ms. HANSON. I don't remember what my view was, at that point, sir. I've told you what I understood from Ms. Kulka. Senator HATCH. You don't recall conveying that to Mr. Nussbaum? Ms. HANSON. I don't. Senator HATCH. You're not denying that you may have conveyed it to him at that time, are you? Ms. HANSON. I'm not denying it. I don't recall. Senator HATCH. Let me jump ahead a few weeks to February 24, 1994, the day that Mr. Altman testified before the Banking Committee. On that day, you received a call from Neil Eggleston. Is that right? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. On February 24 1994. He was an attorney in the White House Counsel's Office. Correct? Ms. HANSON. Correct. Senator HATCH. He was, then, working for Mr. Nussbaum? Ms. HANSON. Yes. Senator HATCH. And Mr. Nussbaum called to ask you whether former U.S. Attorney, Jay Stephens, was the lead outside counsel representing the RTC in the Madison Guaranty matter? Ms. HANSON. This was after the hearing on February 24, 1994, yes. Senator HATCH. It was clear to you that Mr. Eggleston viewed this as a problem, wasn't it? Ms. Hanson. He just asked me the question. Senator HATCH. He wasn't the only Administration official who complained to you about the RTC's hiring of Mr, Stephens, was he? Ms. HANSON. He was the only White House official that I spoke to about the matter. 161 Senator HATCH. But he wasn't the only one who complained to you about it, was he? Ms. HANSON. There were other people in the Treasury Department that I spoke to. Senator HATCH. Anybody else in the Administration? Ms. HANsON. In the White House, no. Senator HATCH. In fact, Joshua Steiner, the Chief of Staff to Treasury Secretary Bentsen, bad told you that be thought Ellen Kulka should be fired for hiring Stephens, hadn't he? Ms. HANSON. Yes, he did.
August 1, 1994 - Part 7
(21:00:37) Senator HATCH. Michael Levy or Levy-I don't know how you pronounce it-who also works at Treasury, was part of this discussion you and Mr. Steiner had with Treasury. Is that correct? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. I had several conversations with Mr. Steiner, but there was one where Mr. Levy was present. Senator HATCH. Mr. Levy pointed out that lawyers hire lawyers based on their expertise as lawyers. Isn't that, basically, what he said? Ms. HANSON. That's my recollection. Senator HATCH. You agreed with him. Right? Ms. HANSON. That's right. Senator HATCH. Around this time, either Mr. Altman or Mr. Steiner telephoned you to ask how Jay Stephens had been hired. Is that correct? Ms. HANSON. I was asked. I don't recall if it was in a telephone conversation. Senator HATCH. Do you remember whether it was Mr. Altman or Mr. Steiner who called you at that time? Ms, HANSON. I don't recall. I believe that my conversations were with Mr. Steiner, but I don't recall. Senator HATCH. You told Mr. Altman or Mr. Steiner that Mr. Stephens was hired through the normal RTC contracting procedures. Isn't that what you said? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. In fact, you said that you were certain this was the case. Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. But Mr. Altman or Mr. Steiner, nonetheless, insisted that you check to see if there was anything irregular in the process in which Jay Stephens was hired. Ms. HANSON. I was asked to check Senator HATCH. Double-check it. Ms. HANSON. To double-check how he was hired. Senator HATCH. You understood, at the time, Mr. Steiner was extremely unhappy with the fact that Jay Stephens bad been hired. Isn't that right? Ms. HANSON. I wouldn't say-I wouldn't characterize it as extremely unhappy, but yes. Senator HATCH. He was unhappy. Ms. HANSON. Yes, be was unhappy. Senator HATCH. In another conversation with Mr. Steiner, be asked you whether the RTC civil action could be given to the Whitewater Independent Counsel, Robert Fiske, rather than Ellen Kulka or Jay Stephens. Isn't that correct? 162 Ms. HANSON. I understood the question was whether the Independent Counsel could assume jurisdiction of the RTC Investiga-tion. Senator HATCH. That was in another conversation with Steiner, he asked you whether the RTC civil action could be given to the Whitewater Independent Counsel instead of the other two, Kulka or Stephens. Ms. HANSON I understood it to be Stephens. Senator HATCH. Right. You also knew, didn't you, that Mr. Steiner was receiving calls from the White House about Jay, Stephens? Ms. HANSON. I understood that. Senator HATCH. Let me go back to that other question. In an- other conversation with Steiner, as I understand it, according to your deposition, he asked you whether the RTC civil action could be given to Whitewater Independent Counsel Fiske rather than to Kulka or Stephens. Do you remember stating that in your deposi- tion? Ms. HANSON. Rather than Stephens? Senator HATCH. Rather than Fiske excuse me, than Kulka or Stephens. Ms. HANSON. Rather than Stephens, not Kulka- Senator HATCH. Kulka and Stephens. Ms. HANSON. She's the General Counsel of the RTC. Senator HATCH. I mean Kulka and Stephens, yes. I think your deposition says , "I also recall a conversation with Mr. Steiner in which he asks whether the Independent Counsel could take over the civil investigation in lieu of Mr. Stephens," and it goes on from there. Do you remember saying that? Ms. HANSON. Do I remember saying what? Senator HATCH. In your deposition that I just read to you. Ms. HANSON. Yes, I do. Senator HATCH. And that's accurate? Ms. HANSON. To my recollection, yes. Senator HATCH. You also knew, didn't you, that Mr. Steiner was receiving calls from the White House about Jay Stephens? Ms. HANSON. Yes, sir. Senator HATCH. In fact, Mr. Steiner told you the people at the White House wanted to see if they could get rid of Jay Stephens. Isn't that correct? Ms. HANSON. That is correct. He did say that. He said-what I recall him saying is, "Do you believe that they want to see if they can get rid of Jay Stephens and everyone agreed and understood that was ridiculous." Senator HATCH. Do you recall what dates those conversations took place? Ms. HANSON. It's my recollection that they took place after the testimony-the end of the day-later in the day, on February 2 , 1994, possibly running over to the morning of February 25, 1994. Senator HATCH. And others may have been several days earlier? Ms. HANSON. Others? Senator HATCH. With Steiner? Ms. HANSON. No, they were all within a very close time frame. 163 Senator HATCH. But some of them may have taken place on February 25, 1994. MS. HANSON. I just don't recall, sir. It all happened within a very brief time frame. (20:05:12)(Tape #10062 ends)
August 1, 1994 - Part 8
(20:56:27)(Tape #10063 begins) They had-because they had been modified, for my use, to just talk about the statute of limitations issue, so yes, they were almost identical. Senator Mup-RAY. Would it be correct to say that information provided at the February 2, 1994, meeting was being shared elsewhere, specifically, in Congress or congressional briefings? Ms. HANSON. It's my understanding that was correct yes. Senator MURRAY. I tend to agree with my friend, Senator Bennett, who said a little earlier, 'If these meetings hadn't occurred, we wouldn't have to hold these hearings." I wish those meetings hadn't occurred, and I think my family, at this point, wishes they hadn't as well, but I understand the motivation. I think I know what it's like. I think we all do, when a press story is shaped by leaks and the inclination is to coordinate a response. If you hadn't met, we'd probably all be criticizing the Administration for being disorganized. Let me ask you the one, really, relevant question here. Have you, Ms. Hanson, ever done anything, anything whatsoever, to impede or derail an investigation at the RTC or the Department of Justice? Ms. HANSON. Never. Senator MURRAY. To be complete, are you aware of anybody who is responsible for derailing or impeding an investigation into Madison? 160 Ms. HANSON. No. Senator MURRAY. Do you know of anybody or have you yourself ever seen the criminal referrals? Ms. HANSON. I have never seen the criminal referrals. Senator MURRAY. Thank you. Mr. Chairman from MY unique perspective way down here, it seems to me that the chairs are getting empty and the yawns are getting larger so I'II yield back my time. The CHAIRMAN. Do I understand you need to take a short break? Ms. HANSON. Yes. The Chairman. I don't want your lawyer deciding it. I want you deciding it, and there's a big difference between the two. I mean, I'd gotten an indication that you needed one, but if that's his thinking not yours, we're going to continue, no disrespect to him. Ms. HANSON. Let's continue for a few minutes. The CHAiRMAN. Very good. Senator Hatch, you're re going to finish your line of questioning now. Senator HATCH. I'll try to finish this time. Ms. Hanson, when we finished before, you had called Mr. Nussbaum on February 8, 1994, and I wasn't quite sure what your answer was, but as I understand it, at the time you called him, you were of the view, personally, that the RTC civil case would not be handed over to Mr. Fiske at that time. Ms. HANSON. I don't remember what my view was, at that point, sir. I've told you what I understood from Ms. Kulka. Senator HATCH. You don't recall conveying that to Mr. Nussbaum? Ms. HANSON. I don't. Senator HATCH. You're not denying that you may have conveyed it to him at that time, are you? Ms. HANSON. I'm not denying it. I don't recall. Senator HATCH. Let me jump ahead a few weeks to February 24, 1994, the day that Mr. Altman testified before the Banking Committee. On that day, you received a call from Neil Eggleston. Is that right? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. On February 24 1994. He was an attorney in the White House Counsel's Office. Correct? Ms. HANSON. Correct. Senator HATCH. He was, then, working for Mr. Nussbaum? Ms. HANSON. Yes. Senator HATCH. And Mr. Nussbaum called to ask you whether former U.S. Attorney, Jay Stephens, was the lead outside counsel representing the RTC in the Madison Guaranty matter? Ms. HANSON. This was after the hearing on February 24, 1994, yes. Senator HATCH. It was clear to you that Mr. Eggleston viewed this as a problem, wasn't it? Ms. Hanson. He just asked me the question. Senator HATCH. He wasn't the only Administration official who complained to you about the RTC's hiring of Mr, Stephens, was he? Ms. HANSON. He was the only White House official that I spoke to about the matter. 161 Senator HATCH. But he wasn't the only one who complained to you about it, was he? Ms. HANSON. There were other people in the Treasury Department that I spoke to. Senator HATCH. Anybody else in the Administration? Ms. HANsON. In the White House, no. Senator HATCH. In fact, Joshua Steiner, the Chief of Staff to Treasury Secretary Bentsen, bad told you that be thought Ellen Kulka should be fired for hiring Stephens, hadn't he? Ms. HANSON. Yes, he did.
August 1, 1994 - Part 8
(21:00:37) Senator HATCH. Michael Levy or Levy-I don't know how you pronounce it-who also works at Treasury, was part of this discussion you and Mr. Steiner had with Treasury. Is that correct? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. I had several conversations with Mr. Steiner, but there was one where Mr. Levy was present. Senator HATCH. Mr. Levy pointed out that lawyers hire lawyers based on their expertise as lawyers. Isn't that, basically, what he said? Ms. HANSON. That's my recollection. Senator HATCH. You agreed with him. Right? Ms. HANSON. That's right. Senator HATCH. Around this time, either Mr. Altman or Mr. Steiner telephoned you to ask how Jay Stephens had been hired. Is that correct? Ms. HANSON. I was asked. I don't recall if it was in a telephone conversation. Senator HATCH. Do you remember whether it was Mr. Altman or Mr. Steiner who called you at that time? Ms, HANSON. I don't recall. I believe that my conversations were with Mr. Steiner, but I don't recall. Senator HATCH. You told Mr. Altman or Mr. Steiner that Mr. Stephens was hired through the normal RTC contracting procedures. Isn't that what you said? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. In fact, you said that you were certain this was the case. Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. But Mr. Altman or Mr. Steiner, nonetheless, insisted that you check to see if there was anything irregular in the process in which Jay Stephens was hired. Ms. HANSON. I was asked to check Senator HATCH. Double-check it. Ms. HANSON. To double-check how he was hired. Senator HATCH. You understood, at the time, Mr. Steiner was extremely unhappy with the fact that Jay Stephens bad been hired. Isn't that right? Ms. HANSON. I wouldn't say-I wouldn't characterize it as extremely unhappy, but yes. Senator HATCH. He was unhappy. Ms. HANSON. Yes, be was unhappy. Senator HATCH. In another conversation with Mr. Steiner, be asked you whether the RTC civil action could be given to the Whitewater Independent Counsel, Robert Fiske, rather than Ellen Kulka or Jay Stephens. Isn't that correct? 162 Ms. HANSON. I understood the question was whether the Independent Counsel could assume jurisdiction of the RTC Investiga-tion. Senator HATCH. That was in another conversation with Steiner, he asked you whether the RTC civil action could be given to the Whitewater Independent Counsel instead of the other two, Kulka or Stephens. Ms. HANSON I understood it to be Stephens. Senator HATCH. Right. You also knew, didn't you, that Mr. Steiner was receiving calls from the White House about Jay, Stephens? Ms. HANSON. I understood that. Senator HATCH. Let me go back to that other question. In an- other conversation with Steiner, as I understand it, according to your deposition, he asked you whether the RTC civil action could be given to Whitewater Independent Counsel Fiske rather than to Kulka or Stephens. Do you remember stating that in your deposi- tion? Ms. HANSON. Rather than Stephens? Senator HATCH. Rather than Fiske excuse me, than Kulka or Stephens. Ms. HANSON. Rather than Stephens, not Kulka- Senator HATCH. Kulka and Stephens. Ms. HANSON. She's the General Counsel of the RTC. Senator HATCH. I mean Kulka and Stephens, yes. I think your deposition says , "I also recall a conversation with Mr. Steiner in which he asks whether the Independent Counsel could take over the civil investigation in lieu of Mr. Stephens," and it goes on from there. Do you remember saying that? Ms. HANSON. Do I remember saying what? Senator HATCH. In your deposition that I just read to you. Ms. HANSON. Yes, I do. Senator HATCH. And that's accurate? Ms. HANSON. To my recollection, yes. Senator HATCH. You also knew, didn't you, that Mr. Steiner was receiving calls from the White House about Jay Stephens? Ms. HANSON. Yes, sir. Senator HATCH. In fact, Mr. Steiner told you the people at the White House wanted to see if they could get rid of Jay Stephens. Isn't that correct? Ms. HANSON. That is correct. He did say that. He said-what I recall him saying is, "Do you believe that they want to see if they can get rid of Jay Stephens and everyone agreed and understood that was ridiculous." Senator HATCH. Do you recall what dates those conversations took place? Ms. HANSON. It's my recollection that they took place after the testimony-the end of the day-later in the day, on February 2 , 1994, possibly running over to the morning of February 25, 1994. Senator HATCH. And others may have been several days earlier? Ms. HANSON. Others? Senator HATCH. With Steiner? Ms. HANSON. No, they were all within a very close time frame. 163 Senator HATCH. But some of them may have taken place on February 25, 1994. MS. HANSON. I just don't recall, sir. It all happened within a very brief time frame.
August 1, 1994 - Part 8
(21:05:12)(Tape #10062 ends) Senator HATCH. Just a couple other questions. Ms. Hanson, would you agree that one of the concerns underlying the confidentiality of criminal referrals is that the premature disclosure can jeopardize the prosecution itself?. Ms. HANSON. That's correct, sir. Senator HATCH. Did you not run such a risk when informed the White House of the proposed Madison referral on September 28 and 29, 1993? MS. HANSON. I know Mr. Nussbaum to be a man of great integrity, an able lawyer. That was the person that I was giving that information to. I expected that he would use that information only for the proper governmental purpose that I gave. In fact, every piece of information that I was given by Mr. Roelle has appeared in the newsprint somewhere so, if there was a problem with jeopardizing the prosecution, it happened from the leaks out of the RTC and not from my conversation with Mr. Nussbaum. Mr. Nussbaum and I are two officials of the Executive Branch who are both bound by the Office of Government Ethics regulations. Senator HATCH. Ms. Hanson, I was very interested in your statement to Senator Gramm, that the reason you contacted Bernard Nussbaum regarding the criminal referrals was that Mr. Nussbaum was the person at the White House in charge of investigations. I think that was the word you used. Ms. HANSON. I don't believe that's quite what I testified, sir. Senator HATCH. That was my recollection, maybe I misconstrued it, but that's --- if that was so, then, that may be a breach in the well- orchestrated claim by the Administration MS HANSON. What Senator HATCH. -that all actions were taken in anticipation of press leaks. I'm just noting that for the record. If you didn't, that's OK but that was my recollection. Ms. HANSON. What my testimony was, if I could just clarify it, please, is that the internal White House procedures designate Mr. Nussbaum, the Office of Counsel to the President, as the contact for any discussions relating to anything involving an investigation, so as a -he was, as I understood it, with respect to the internal White House policy, the person who was the appropriate person to contact. The CHAIRMAN. I just want to take a moment here. I was reviewing two documents that were given to me by the Counsel on the Republican side. We'll put the coding numbers in the record. One, is this list of talking points for Roger Altman's informational meeting with Mack McLarty, dated 2/2/94, at the bottom of which was this briefing point where Mr. Altman indicated that he had decided he was going to recuse himself from the decisionmaking process as Interim CEO of the RTC and so forth, Then there is a subsequent briefing document, which, apparently, was used by you and others up here on the Hill, that has the same items, although it drops off the last item, which is the recusal item. You made a passing reference, a few moments ago, 164 to a meeting with my staff and me at a point in February. I re-, member that meeting. I remember that meeting for the purpose of discussing the likelier hood of appointing a man named Larry Simons to head up the RTC. You were coming to indicate that you were looking at what his qualifications were how he might be received, and forth and so on. I remember no effort, whatsoever, to go down a process, like this discussion off of a set of talking, points, with respect to the discussions or points made by Republican Sen- ators on tolling agreements, Jim Guy Tucker, or any of this business. I mean, that wasn't the focus of the discussion that day, and I just don't want that inference left on the record. Ms. HANSON. If I could clarify, too, for the record as well Senator. The discussion-as I recall, the discussion was, in fact on Larry. Simons as a possible CEO nominee. I recall, at the end of the discussion, having a discussion with you and your staff on the fact that the statute of limitations was running on Madison Guaranty and that, in fact, work was being done, at that point, to ex'tend the statute of limitations, and that Mr. Altman was still involved in the process. But it was not-this was, clearly, not a meeting set up, specifically, to talk about that issue.
August 1, 1994 - Part 8
(21:10:11) The CHAIRMAN. Let me be clear with you. I've been talking with the staff here. Apparently, in the course of the meeting on Mr. Simons, there was something else going on. He was having people make side phone calls on totally unrelated matters. I don't have any recollection of talking with you about these items on this list. I remember Larry Simons and that's it, and I think I would have a memory of this if I had been engaged in that conversation. To the extent you discussed it with staff Ms. HANSON. OK The CHAIRMAN. -that may or may not have happened but, the point is, there was no substantive discussion with me on the points on this list or I would clearly remember it. Is your recollection different than that? MS. HANSON. I recall, sir, that you were in and out. But I recall discussing at least a part of this with you being present. The CHAIRMAN. It rings no bells with me. I remember Larry Si- mons because we talked about it at some length. Wasn't that the purpose of the meeting, to go over Ms. HANSON. Absolutely, it was the purpose of the meeting and I understand not being able to recall things. The CHAIRMAN. I think I would recall this if you had come and given me a briefing-did you come and give somebody else in the Senate a briefing on this? Was this a talking point prepared for other meetings at other times? Ms. HANSON. It was prepared for other meetings at other timesI, personally, didn't talk with anyone else in Congress on it. The CHAiRMAN. When it has-there's a mystery document. On our side, next, is Senator Dodd. Did you want to be recognized? Senator Boxer, I guess, had wanted to be also Senator DODD. Just very briefly, and I'll yield time to my colleague from California. Sitting here, let me just express my own views as I listen and look at the cluster of issues before us. It seems to me, there are three issues, and others may find more. The 165 first issue is the question of statutory authority, which saddled you with, or transferred to you, this responsibility to act as a General Counsel of the RTC. 1, again, will emphasize the point I think oth-ers have made already, but it needs to be emphasized, and that is I find this to be a terrible sense of bad judgment. With hats switch-in all the time, to put people in that position is troublesome. There Le is at least a real potential for conflict of interest, not to men-tion the appearance of conflict of interest. Again, that's something we're going to correct with the law but, someone, in my view, should have had some ability to make a judegment call that this was inviting a problem. I think that's one duster of issues. The second, is congressional testimony. I was not at the meeting in which Senator Gramm, Senator Bond, and Senator Domenici raised the issues of questions to Mr. Altman, but I've been a Member of Congress for 20 years and have attended a lot of hearings over a lot of years, and I understand bow it's a little difficult for some of the staff to jump in when either one of us is asking a question or a witness is testifying I'm not going to argue about that particular moment. But, I've It to tell you, Ms. Hanson, I find it inexcusable that almost 3 weeks could go by without someone coming back on this issue. Others may wander around that set of questions. I find it hard to draw that conclusion. Third, with regard to the contacts at the White House, in my view, there were far too many meetings, far too many people, and far too vague lines that were drawn here. It seems to me, that's becoming obvious and it was sloppy. The old smell test, for those of us who have been around here. is should have been handled better than it was handled, Those are three clusters of issues that I find troublesome. I think it's also important to put everything in some sort of perspective. Even though a lot of time gets spent on these issues, I come back to the questions I asked you in my first round which come back to the issue of whether or not anything was done here to in any way jeopardize these criminal referrals or to in any way try to influence those decisions. Now, I know others have raised the issue we don't know if something was done. It's hard to prove a negative, and I'm waiting to see if any evidence emerges to see if something was done. To this juncture, nothing has. That, to me, is a very critical issue. So, while Im concerned about this testimony to Congress, I think that, in and of itself, is a set of legitimate issues to be addressed, and, certainly, the statutory authority and the contacts with the White House are also. This is awfully confusing to people watching and 'listening to it. At the end of the day, didi something happen here which jeopardized these criminal referrals? At this juncture, the testimony that all of you have given, under oath, before this Committee, is that nothing was done; no obstruction of justice to interfere with those criminal referrals. The bottom-line issue, at least as far as this Senator is concerned the ethical issues others are addressing, I think, are troublesome. And more than troublesome doesn't do them justice, because we send out messages to future witnesses about how to perform before congressional panels. But, on the bottom-line issue, on the serious, note of whether or not there was any damage done to 166 the legal process, I'm satisfied, at this juncture, that's not the case'. Regarding congressional testimony, there was bad judgment on statutory authority, and sloppy operations. I think there's a real concern. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Roth. Ms. HANSON. Could we break? Could we break for a few minutes, sir? The CHAIRMAN. Lees take a brief break and come back in. We're going to be here past midnight if we don't get back at it. The Committee stands in recess for a short period of time. (21:16:46) (21:16:48) Commentary of hearings hosts NINA TOTENBERG and KEN BODE, they also interview Senator JOHN KERRY [Recess.]
August 1, 1994 - Part 8
(21:26:02) Hearing resumes: The CHAiRmAN. Let me invite everybody to get seated so we can resume. Ms. HANSON. Senator Riegle, if I might , Senator Dodd raised some points before the break, and I did not have an opportunity to respond to them, adequately. I would like an opportunity to do so. The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. Ms. HANSON. Senator Dodd raised three areas of issue. One is authority. The second is the testimony, and the third is the contacts. In terms of the authority, I had plenty of authority to do what I was doing There was no need for a particular detail. There is an Attorney General's opinion that says no formal detail is required and, in fact, informal details happen all the time. To the extent what I was doing was a detail, although I didn't consider it to be a detail, there was ample authority for me to do that without having to have a writing in place to evidence it. With respect to the second issue, the testimony, as I have testified, I did not have a transcript and, as a careful lawyer, if you can't look at it, can't read it, and can't hold on to it, then, you can't respond to it, and I was not able to respond to it. I didn't have it. As I've testified, on March 4, 1994, my participation in this came to an end. That was the end of my participation in this. I can't respond to why it took 3 weeks or why other letters came in. I did not participate in it. I was under instruction from my counsel, having received a Grand Jury subpoena, to cease all involvement and a conversations with anyone about this matter, and I did that. The CHAIRMAN. I might say, I think it's important that did It's a significant fact, and was appropriate for you to do. That should be acknowledged. Ms. HANSON. The third issue that Senator Dodd raised was the contacts. I was involved in three contacts. I was involved in a meeting with Mr. Nussbaum, the purpose of which was to report on press leaks. I was involved in a meeting on October 14, 1993, that I was invited to, addressing specific press inquiries going to Treas- which created the implication that Treasury was---or the Ad-ministration was interfering in the proper processing of criminal referrals. It was in the interest of the Government to make certain that a story with incorrect information, that cast that sort of light on the Administration, was not written. The third meeting was the February 2, 1994, meeting in which the statute of limitations was discussed. This was -purely procedural, an application of law to facts. Mr. Altman's recusal was also 167 discussed at this meeting. Those are the contacts I have had. I have had other miscellaneous conversations with people. I have talked with attorneys in the office of-in the Counsel to the President. In my view, not a single one of them is significant. Mr. Cutler has said there were too many contacts. They were not controlled. That may very well be. My contacts-I had three principal contacts, and I've gone over them-each one, in my view,had a proper governmental purpose, and was legitimate and appropriate. The CHAIRMAN. I'm going to Senator GRAMM. Mr. Chairman, would you yield for 1 second. The CHAIRMAN. I will in a second. I'm going to clarify Senator BOXER. We have to -keep with the time.
August 1, 1994 - Part 8
(21:30:17) The CHAiRmAN. We are going to stay with the time. With respect to the transcript from the hearing, the Treasury Department received a transcript, from this Committee, the day after the hearing. If you're the General Counsel over there, and I don't know how things get passed around within the Treasury Department, we have the name of the individual that received the transcript the day after the hearing, So, you should understand, the record should be clear that the Treasury Department had a full transcript 24 hours after that hearing. Why you didn't get it, or somehow were out of the loop on it, we can't begin to answer, but you should understand, the Department, for which youre the top lawyer, had one the day after the hearing. Ms. HANsoN. Senator Riegle, Mr. Altman didn't have one on March 1, 1994, either, so I don't know what happened to the transcript. The CHAIRMAN. You may want to go back tomorrow and ask Ms. HANsON. I Will, absolutely, go back and check this out. The CHAIRMAN. I want to go to the questions. I'm going to call on Senator Roth. Is it critical, Senator Gramm, or should we go to Senator Roth? Senator GRAMM. III wait and come back. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Roth. Senator RoTH. Yes. Mr. Chairman, last Friday, in my opening remarks, I expressed concern about two things. One, was whether our rules, policy, and guidelines on matters of ethics and conflicts of interest were adequate. Second, whether or not these rules were adequately enforced. As I listen to the testimony today, I become aware there have been some pretty strict policies established both in the RTC, as well as in the White House, but the thing that concerns me, Ms. Hanson, is I see very little evidence of any effort being made to enforce these rules and regulations. In the case of the RTC, it was established this morning that it is the policy of the RTC not to disclose criminal referrals, or information about their preparation, on an institution-specific basis. In answer to a question as to whether there were any exceptions to that policy, whether referrals extended to press inquiries, we were told there were no exceptions of any type. Now, my question to you is whether or not, in your discussions and determination of contacting the White House, the policy of the RTC came under consideration in any way? 168 Ms. HANSON. No, sir, but I believe the policy of the RTC, as I understand it, is that criminal referrals are to be confidential and that there is no exception for talking to the press, If that's the case, then that policy and that regulation were breached by the RTC employee, or employees, who gave the press all this information which was the reason that I ended up talking with Mr. Nussbaum. If that hadn't occurred, then the conversations wouldn't have taken place. Senator ROTH. At the time you contacted Mr. Nussbaum, was it clear that there had been a leak, and were you aware of what that leak was? Ms. HANSON. There was absolutely no question in my mind, at the time I spoke with Mr. Nussbaum, that either it had been leaked or was about to be leaked. That view was confirmed, the following day, by an RTC Early Bird. In addition as I've stated, the IG report-the IG chronology, that was released yesterday, showed reporter interest on September 23, 1993. Senator ROTH. But, if I understand your testimony, Ms. Hanson, at the time you called Mr. Nussbaum, you did not, specifically, know whether or not there was a leak. As you just said, either there had been a leak or you knew there was going to be a leak. Ms. HANSON. Whether I knew---- Senator ROTH. The facts are you did not, actually, know at that time. Is that not correct?
August 1, 1994 - Part 8
(21:35:17) Ms. HANSON. That's correct, and it was not relevant to my decision because, if I had sat around and waited to make sure there was a press leak, by that time, it may have been too late Senator ROTH. Are you saying that you believe because there might be a leak Senator D'AMATO. Will the Senator yield for just a moment? I'd like to know, too late for what? You come and you say-and I understand the contention that if there are leaks, et cetera, but there was no leak. You say because nu feared there was a leak, therefore you could then cross this ne to brief someone. It's very questionable whether they should have been briefed about a potential leak. The Senator says, "Well, at that point in time there wasn't a leak." You said, "Yeah, that's right, but it would have been too late." Too late for what? Ms. HANSON. Sir, I didn't say, at that time, there wasn't a leak and, in fact Senator DAmATO. The Senator said, and it was his contention, there was no leak. The records indicate there was no public information out at that time, Now, question, you then said, 'Well I that's why we bad to do it now because, otherwise, it would be too late.", What do you mean by "it would be too late"? Ms. HANSON. Sir, what I meant was it was necessary in my view, that the White House be in a position to prepare themselves for possible inquiries, for inquiries that, in my judgment understanding the situation and having spoken with Mr. Roelle, were going to occur and, in the end, in fact, occurred. Senator DAmATO. But what did they say when Ms. HANSON. In answer Senator DAMATO. Wait a minute. Ms. HANSON. May I finish? Senator DAMATO. Yes, go ahead. 169 MS. HANSON. May I finish, please? In fact, it did turn out that reporters had incorrect information and, if they had printed the story based on the incorrect information they had, it would have put the Administration in a prejudicial light, the implication being that there Senator DAmATo. Did you correct Ms. HANSON. May I finish? Senator ROTH. Mr. Chairman, may I have my full time? The CHAIRMAN. We're on your time. Senator DAMATO. I'll yield him my time. Ms. HANSON. May I finish my statement? Senator SARBANES. Why don't we let Ms. Hanson complete her answer and go back to Senator Roth? The CHAIRMAN. You can complete your answer. Ms. HANSON. The information that the reporter bad was that the referrals were being held up at the RTC and not forwarded to the Justice Department. That was the inquiry that came into the Treasury. The clear implication of the question being that the Administration or the Treasury was interfering with the processing of the criminal referrals. It was in the interest of the Government, I believe, that this story, this reporter's information, be corrected, and that this story not be printed. That is one of the reasons why people are aware of information, so that they can deal with inaccurate press stories, or press inquiries, that if printed, would be prejudicial and damaging. The CHAIRMAN. You've made that point. I want to ask the clerk to restore some of Senator Roth's time, so that the time of your statement isn't charged against his statement. Senator ROTH. Ms. Hanson, in answer to my question, you said there was no factual knowledge at the time you made the contact. My concern, and my question, is if you don't need to have any actual leak or press inquiry, doesn't that exception swallow the rule? Doesn't the rule become a nullity? Would you answer? Ms. HANSON. Sir Senator ROTH. If at any time a person thinks there may be a press inquiry, an exception can be made to the rule of confidentiality, doesn't that really destroy the rule of confidentiality? Ms. HANSON, I don't believe that two Executive Branch officials speaking with each other on a matter relating to possible press inquiries or other governmental-in another governmental function breaches the confidentiality. Senator ROTH. That's not my question. Ms. HANSON. I'm sorry, sir. Senator ROTH. My question was, doesn't--if your logic is pursued, and an exception to the rule of confidentiality can be made any time there is a suspicion or belief that there is going to be a press leak, doesn't that destroy the rule of confidentiality, for all practical purposes?
August 1, 1994 - Part 8
(21:40:41) Ms. HANSON. As I stated, I think that two governmental officials in the Executive Branch talking to each other doesn't destroy the confidentiality. Senator ROTH. Let me point out what the RTC stated, in a writing response to questions, after the February 24, 1994, hearing: 170 The disclosure of any information concerning a criminal referral may serve to alert a suspect that an investigation may be pending, enable the suspect to conceal evidence, or dissipate the proceeds of the crime, fabricate evidence, or otherwise impede the investigation. Aren't these legitimate concerns? Ms. HANSON. Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. That is why the employee, or the employees, at the RTC who leaked this information to the press, I believe, should be investigated Senator ROTH. Did you discuss with anyone the RTC policy and how it should be applied to the immediate case? Ms. HANSON. No, sir I didn't believe I needed to. Senator ROTH. YOU didn't think you needed to, but that was the basic policy of the agency responsible for administering the law-, Ms. HANSON. Sir, I understood that two Executive Branch offi- cials could speak with each other in pursuit of a proper governmental purpose. Senator ROTH. Under that interpretation, couldn't you discuss a' referral at any time? If the rule is that two Government officials can discuss a criminal referral, then the rule, again, becomes a nullify, doesn't it? Ms. HANSON. I believe in that case, one has to look at the purpose for having the discussion. If there is a proper governmental purpose, then I believe a discussion can be had. I know, and it's the policy of the RTC and the Treasury, that criminal referral information is sensitive, and must be handled with extreme care. Senator ROTH. Would you extend this privilege to anyone but the President? MS. HANSON. Excuse me? Senator ROTH. Let me put it this way-, Would anyone else, who might be subject to a press inquiry, be entitled to the same kind of information? Ms. HANSON. Sir, it would depend on the situation. Senator ROTH. But there are circumstances in which you would answer in the affirmative? Ms. HANSON. There are situations absolutely, where the need to know information in order to be able to deal with press inquiries would be-is a proper governmental purpose, just as this one was. Senator ROTH. Let me ask you this: Are you familiar with the guidelines established by Mr. Nussbaum? Ms. HANSON. I don't know which ones you're referring to, sir. Senator ROTH. The memorandum from the Presidential Counsel Nussbaum entitled, "Prohibition of White House Staff Contacts with Independent Regulatory Agencies." It was dated February 22) 1993. Are you familiar with that memorandum? Ms. HANSON. Yes, sir. I don't have a copy in front of me, but I'm, generally, familiar. Senator ROTH. That memorandum says: There is generally no justification for any White House involvement in particular adjudicative or rulemaking proceedings at any agency. Therefore, as a general rule, no member of the staff should contact any agency in regard to any adjudicative or rulemaking, matter pending before that agency. Are you familiar with that language? Ms. HANSON. I've heard that language, sir. Senator ROTH. Did that rule come up in discussions at any time, either in the Treasury or with the White House? 171 Ms. HANSON. In terms of my conversation with Mr. Nussbaum? Senator ROTH. That's correct. MS. HANSON. There was no White House involvement in any adjudicatory process. There was no White House involvement, in this process, at all. Senator ROTH. But we are talking about the RTC. They are the ones that are the adjudicative agency, are they not? Ms. HANSON. Perhaps I should have a copy of what you're reading from in front of me. The CHAIRMAN. Let's get one for you. We extended the time period, to make up for the time, and its expired. I want to try to continue on. I don't want to be arbitrary, in terms of Senator Roth getting an answer to his question, but if you're going to have to study the document-Senator Roth
Green Sea Turtle
(TAPE 1) Galapagos - green sea turtle swimming
Iguana
(TAPE 1) Land iguana shedding its skin in patches, yawning
Swallow Tail Gull
(TAPE 1) Swallow tail gull and chick looking for food
Sea Lion
(TAPE 1) Sea lion sleeping using a rock for a pillow Sea lion with its head underwater, blowing bubbles
Iguana
(TAPE 1) Land iguana shedding its skin in patches on santa fe
Opuntia cactus
(TAPE 1) Flowers on opuntia cactus and pads