August 1, 1994 - Part 7
August 1, 1994 - Part 7
(20:45:27) Senator MOSELEY-BRAuN. Did you have any discussions with anyone regarding the propriety of your playing this role---I mean, you weren't RTC Counsel but you were playing a role that was Ms. HANsoN. I was asked by Mr. Altman to play this role. He ism superior. my Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. OK, but you didn't have- MS. HANSON. I believed then, and I believe now, that it was the appropriate thing to do. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Can you just-but did you have any concern, or did you have any discussion with anyone around-concerning- the propriety- Ms. HANSON. No I didn't. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. -of what you were doing? OK. The CHAIRMAN. I think, you know, she's Senator MOSELEY-BRAuN. She did now. The CHAIRMAN. I think she's made it clear that she doesn'tshe's on the other side of that point, and makes it very clear. Senator Hatch. Senator HATCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Hanson, here I am. Let me turn to the February 2, 1994, meeting at the White House in which Roger Altman informed White ouse officials that he was recusing himself from the RTC's decision to pursue a civil action in Madison Guaranty. It's correct, it., that Bernie-Bernie Nussbaum, who was then the White House Counsel, was very concerned over who at the RTC would be making the decisions in the Madison Guaranty matter if Roger Alt an recused himself? Ms. HANSON. lie did ask. He did ask, yes. 156 Senator HATCH. So, he was concerned. It's also correct, isn't it that Mr. Nussbaum was particularly concerned that Ms. Kulka, the new General Counsel at RTC, would be making the decision on whether to pursue a civil action? Is that a fair characterization? Ms, HANSON. He said that she was tough. Senator HATCH. Mr. Nussbaum didn't express any concerns about Ms. Kulka's professional skills, did he? Ms. HANSON. No. Senator HATCH. He didn't express any concerns about her integrity ? Ms. HANSON. No. Senator HATCH. Instead, Mr. Nussbaum's was concern that Ms..,. Kulka was a tough lawyer. Right? Ms. HANSON. That's what he said. Senator HATCH. He didn't view her as a patsy, in other words Ms. HANSON. That's right. Senator HATCH. He said his judgement was based on her work as a Government lawyer when he was in private practice. Isn't that correct? Ms. HANSON. That's what I understood, yes. Senator HATCH. So it's fair to say Mr. Nussbaum's objection to Ms. Kulka was that she was tough in representing the interests of the Government and the American people against private persons who engaged in alleged wrongdoing that cost the American taxpayers lots of money. Ms. HANSON. I understood that be had worked with her when she was with the Office of Thrift Supervision, yes. Senator HATCH. Mr. Nussbaum, at that time, raised his voice and became somewhat emotional. Isn't that true? Ms. HANSON. Mr. Nussbaum did raise his voice, at the beginning, but he's an animated person. Senator HATCH. While he was raising the objections about Ms. Kulka, that's when he raised his voice? Ms. HANSON. When be was asking questions about Ms. Kulka, yes. Senator HATCH. At the end of this meeting on February 2, 19940 Mr. Nussbaum pulled you aside and asked you who made this decision to hire Ms. Kulka as General Counsel of the RTC. Right? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. He told you that he should be consulted in the hiring decision. Wasn't that right? Ms. HANSON. That's right. Senator HATCH. He felt that the decision, on who was to be RTC General Counsel, was one that he should have made, or at least had some part in. Ms. HANSON. That's not what I understood. But that he was I understood that he was to have been consulted. Senator HATCH. It was part of his White House turf is the way I would interpret that. Ms. HANSON. I don't know how to interpret it. Senator HATCH. That's fine. It's true, isn't it, Mr. Nussbaum called you again the following day, on February 3, 1994, and asked you how Ms. Kulka had been hired, asked you again. MS. HANSON. That's correct. 157 Senator HATCH. The very next day, February 4, 1994, Mr. Nuss. baum again telephoned you regarding the scope of the charter of Special Counsel Fiske in the Madison Guaranty/Whitewater matter. Ms. HANSON. Yes, he called me to say that it was available, to make sure that I knew it was available. Senator HATCH. Incidentally, it hadn't been the typical case that he called you daily before then, had it? Ms. HANSON. No, sir. Senator HATCH, But he was calling you daily, at that time, as, we've discussed. MS. HANSON. Right, during the limited period we are discussing, that is, February 3 and 4, 1994. Senator HATCH. In this telephone call about the charter of the Special Counsel, Mr. Nussbaum pointed out to you that the charter could be read to give the Special Counsel authority to pursue civil actions in Madison Guaranty. Isn't that so? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. Mr. Nussbaum suggested to you that Mr. Altman might want to take this into account in determining how to proceed with the RTC investigation? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator HATCH. You understood, from this series of contacts with Mr. Nussbaum, that Mr. Nussbaum thought it preferable to have Mr. Fiske, rather than Ms. Kulka, have jurisdiction over the decision whether or not to pursue a civil action on behalf of the RTC against the persons affiliated with Madison Guaranty?