Advanced Search
Showdown in Vietnam
At Pleiku, 250 miles north of Saigon, a United States airbase was ripped by Vietnamese Communist guerrillas. Eight Americans died in the attack. This brought swift retaliation by US and South Vietnamese forces. From carriers and land bases 49 jets struck back at staging areas just across the border in North Vietnam. First official word of the retaliatory attacks came from Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara in a briefing for newsmen. In the first raid land-based planes were forced back by the weather, but the carrier jets completed their strike with the loss of one plane.The confrontation between the Reds and the West was the most critical since the Gulf of Tonkin incident last summer when the U.S. replied just as swiftly to north Vietnam PT-boat attacks. The second raid came the next day when South Vietnamese pilots hit at other bases across the border. Asian reaction was that the two Red powers, Red China And Russia, had lost face in the East-West showdown. Meanwhile, McGeorge Bundy arrives home from Saigon where he had been during the attack and counter-attack. Mr. Bundy confers with the President and the National Security Council and says political and religious factions in South Vietnam and how more united in fighting the Vietcong. Vietnam Pleiku, the airbase was attacked by Vietnamese Communist guerrillas, pictures of the aftermath. The leftover of a jet plane, disintegrated by the heat of the fire. Army barracks after being shelled by motor fire. Some of the personal belongings that belonged to some of the soldiers. United States Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara, pointing to a Pleiku in Vietnam. "Immediately following the attack US Representatives in Saigon met with the Representatives of South Vietnamese Government. They jointly agreed that joint retaliatory action was required. The President's approval of this action was given after the action was discussed with, and recommended by the National Security Counsel at a meeting held at between 7:45 PM and 9:00 PM last night." Cue stick pointing to different areas of the map of Vietnam. Vietnam Aerial shot - US Aircraft Carrier making its way through the sea. US Jet taking off the deck of the carrier. US Pilot climbing up to get into his cockpit of his jet. Both Pilot and Co-Pilot in the plane and ready to take off. US Air Force. Plane taking off down the tarmac and gaining altitude. A Hawk Round to Air Missile. A Hawk Round to Air Missile sitting on its launching pad. Different view of the Hawk Missile. Military building - Camp Holloway. McGeorge Bundy shaking hands with high ranking military personal. McGeorge Bundy meets and holds a conference with Lt. General Cann. US Military Officer pointing to the damage done to the air field and planes to McGeorge Bundy at Pleiku Air Field in Vietnam. Eight Field Hospital - Ward III. McGeorge Bundy walking out of the hospital with army officers. Wounded men laying in their hospital beds. Head wound - American Soldier. Washington DC Exterior shot - White House winter time. Newsreel men. McGeorge Bundy speaking at the podium on the White House grounds. McGeorge Bundy, "I finally had an opportunity to talk frankly and freely with them. They again emphasize the overriding importance in South Vietnam of the contest against the Communists. They emphasize what the political leaders have done. The importance and their own dedication to the importance to the task of forming a stable and effective political society under a stable and effective government in that country. A view which of course we share. And I think its fair to say, that the Americans in Vietnam have a very good heart and are prepared to continue even against this kind of danger and this kind of sneak attack. Let me say one more thing about that sneak attack, that in a war of this kind in which there are no fixed lines, in which there are large territories that are lightly inhabited and that are essentially jungle and mountainous in character, I know of no military man who believes that without overwhelming assignment that local defense forces that it is possible to guarantee against this kind of sneak attack. This is the sort of thing that all Americans in the area know it, of which we simply have to contend while we prosecute in company with government and people of South Vietnam a contest against Communisism which is of the highest importance to our National Interest."
August 2, 1994 - Part 9
(21:25:34)(tape #10073 begins) Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. But you never got an opinion from anyone regarding the possible conflict between the two positions that you held even subsequent, even recently? Mr. ALTMAN. I never sought a formal opinion, no. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Did you take any steps to guard against potential ethical conflicts or the appearance of such conflicts? Mr. ALTMAN. I tried to conduct myself every single day, Senator, that way, and you know the results of the Office of Government Ethics Report which concluded, if I can say so, that there were no ethical violations. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. In your capacity as RTC CEO on February 1, 1994, Ellen Kulka, the RTC General Counsel, briefed you on Madison matters and I think it's fair to say that she briefed you on the status of civil investigation and the difficulties that the RTC would have in completing that investigation prior to the expiration of the statute of limitations. Is that a fair Mr. ALTMAN. No, no, it's not. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN What was the substance of the briefin ? Mr. ALTMAN. The substance of the briefing was the procedural alternatives which the RTC faced as the statute of limitations approached, as to what they were and what these terms meant. I bad never heard of a tolling agreement before that day and she took me--she didn't say a thing to me about the outlook for the case or the inner workings of the case. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. But you did understand from Mr. Kulka at the time that there was a time pressure on the completion of the investigation with regard to Madison; is that correct? ALTMAN. I knew what the then-statute of limitations dead line was. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN The very next day, Mr. Altman you went to the White House with Jean Hanson to meet with Mr. 486 Nussbaum, Mr. Eggleston, Ms. Williams, and Mr. Ickes. Why didn' you have Ms. Kulka join you rather than Ms. Hanson? Mr. ALTMAN. Perhaps I should have, but Ms. Hanson was helping me out on a variety of matters, including some RTC matters, and I asked her to come with me. I thought I should have a lawyer present. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. But there was no reason that you specifically-that you excluded Ms. Kulka from the meeting? Mr. ALTMAN. No, Senator. Senator MOSELLY-BRAUN. You've repeatedly testified that you di with, Madison case should be dealt rected Madison should be dealt with in an identical fashion relative to any other case. This is in your conversations with Ms. Kulka and others. How did you ensure that Madison would be handled like any other RTC case? Mr, ALTMAN. I instructed that it be. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Excuse me. Mr. ALTMAN. I instructed that it be so. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. But at the same time as interim RTC CEO, it is not our custom, is it, to join with the General Counsel of Treasury to brief potential parties to civil litigation on the work of the statute of limitations, is it? Mr. ALTMAN. As I said in my statement, Senator, I was at that time receiving numerous inquiries from the Congress and from the media. We had at least 7 requests of the RTC staff from congressional staff. I had several letters directly from Members of Congress. And we were responding to those and in order to respond to them, of course, I had to understand what these procedural alternatives were. It seemed to me that since we were providing that information to the Congress and, I might say I believe, to the media, I know it had been in The Washing-ton Times, that it would be reasonable to explain the same procedural alternatives to the White House. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. But again, on that meeting on the 2nd the briefing wasn't ust about the media, it was also about the workings of the-- -of the specifies regarding the-excuse me, may I please-it was with regard to the specifies of the civil litigation and, in fact, you now discuss Mr, ALTMAN. Senator, no, it wasn't. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. You did not discuss the statute of limitations? Mr. ALTMAN. It had nothing to do with the specific-I may understand your term incorrectly, it had nothing to do with the specifies of the civil litigation, if ou mean anything case-specific. There was nothing case- specific discussed. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. The statute of limitations was not discussed? Mr. ALTMAN. Everything we discussed on that was the same as pertains to any other case with an expiring statute of limitations, Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. All right, then, I will-why did you have those discussions, then, with regard to the statute of limitations and tolling agreements in this meeting at the White House? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I was getting increasingly fierce inquiries from the Congress including from Senator D'Amato. I had a letter from 41 Republican Senators and those letters were demanding 487 and it was perfectly OK to do that. Those letters were demanding that we take steps to extend the statute of limitations deadline. They're on the record, they're night there. I had to respond to them and I did respond to them, and frankly, I'm proud of how I did. I remember assuring Senator DAmato that it was an impartial process, an arm's length process, and if the basis existed for seeking a tolling agreement we would do it.
Orchard Irrigation
Pan of sprinklers pumping H2O on orchard trees. Wide shot of farmer digging irrigation ditch in shaded orchard.Med. shot of farmer digging in orchardShot of farmer digging in orchard - shot obscured by dangling vines.Long shot of farmer walking down the grove, digging.Tilt up the ditches in the grove.Long shot of farmer digging ditches in the orchard.Med. shot of farmer digging ditches in the orchardStatic shot of orchard, w/sprinklers spraying H2O in background.Tilt up grove as farmer digs ditches
Ghana Revolt: Army Puts End to One-Man Rule
Prime Minister Kwame Nkrumah is overthrown in a military coup after he leaves Ghana for a visit to Peiping "to achieve peace in Vietnam". Nkrumah took over in a one-man rule after Ghana won its independence, jailed his foes and began a despotic rule. Now, however, he's just another unemployed exile. Footage is of Kwame Nkrumah during a visit with Indira Gandhi two days before the coup. India India's Prime Minister Indira Gandhi meets President Kwame Nkrumah of Ghana. CU - Prime Minister Indira Gandhi walking with President Kwame Nkrumah through a crowd of people. CU - Indira Gandhi and Kwame Nkrumah sitting on a sofa. MS - Prime Minister Indira Gandhi and President Nkrumah walking surrounded by their political entourage. MS - President Kwame Nkrumah and Prime Minister Indira Gandhi driven away in a car. President Nkrumah of Ghana waving to the media.
Royal Wedding In Japan
The latest Royal romance in Japan. The marriage of Prince Yoshi, the younger son of Emperor Hirohito and Empress Nagato, to Miss Hanako Tsugaru, a descendant of one of Japan's oldest, noble families. Outside her home in Tokyo greeting people with graceful formality and she bids good-by to her parents. A very pretty picture of her parents home by a lake with a brick bridge going across the water. Miss Hanako Tsugaru standing with Prince Yoshi on the steps of the Imperial Palace. Motorcade leaving the Imperial Palace. Prince Yoshi and Miss Hanako Tsygaru sitting in the back seat of a limousine. Throngs standing behind a roped off area holding Japanese flags and waiting to catch a glimpse of the Royal couple.
Davis Cup Finals
The Davis Cup drama at Cleveland is climaxed when Australia's Roy Emerson and Chuck McKinley of the United States duel across the net. The Aussie wins before a tense crowd and takes the traveling Davis Cup home after it had rested only one year in America. Close up shot of the coveted Davis Cup. People sitting jam packed in the stands. Two male tennis players on court, Chuck McKinley of the US and Roy Emerson of Australia. People sitting in the stands, some ladies are wearing hats and the gentlemen are wearing suits. McKinley serves. The men keep that ball going back and fourth for some time. McKinley serves as American hopes drain. Score is showed. The tennis crowd. The ball goes to the American and it is missed and the score goes to Australia and the US loses. Roy Emerson and maybe previous winners holding the Davis Cup.
August 2, 1994 - Part 9
(21:30:36) So I was in that position in terms of all these congressional inquiries and all the staff-to-staff inquiries, congressional staff to RTC, so tbis-I just thought if we're giving all this, if we're in a position of explaining these procedures to the Congress and to some extent to the media, it would be reasonable to explain them also to the White House. Now that was what I was thinking. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Assuming, Mr. Alt-man, that at you took ethical steps to guard against potential Ica] conflicts, were you concerned by the time of the February 2 meeting that your two hats might create an appearance of conflict of interest or violation of the illegal exclusion of Treasury Department involvement in case-spe- cific matters coming before the Oversight Board of the RTC? Mr. ALTMAN. I always try to be sensitive to ethical matters. I think I have a good record in that respect, and as you know, none of the Treasury personnel, including me, violated any ethical guidelines in this whole matter. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Well, that's a conclusion and I think that's part of what this hearing is all about, Mr. Altman. But in that regard, I'm trying to get to your state of mind with regard to the dual role that you held, and my question is whether your decisionmaking with regard to recusal, with regard to these meetings, with regard to anything having to do with Madison take into account the confluence, it you will, the two hats, the two roles that you played, you bad two jobs and they both had different kinds of overlapping-did it take into account the dual nature of your employment? Mr. ALTMAN. I did my best to do so. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Was your dual role considered or discussed in connection with the recusal decision? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't quite follow you, Senator. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. When you had the discussions with regard to your decision whether or not to recuse yourself in these matters, was the dual role that you played, the two jobs that you had, was that discussed or considered? Mr. ALTMAN. Well, again, I was aware of that every single day of the week, so I suppose the answer in effect is yes, but I wanted to be careful I didn't have a separate analysis or discussion or legal Opinion. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. So you did consider it, but you did not have a discussion about the duality of your employment and bow that would affect your recusal decision or Mr. ALTMAN. I don't remember any specific discussion on that Point Just before February 2, 1 do not. MOSELEY-BRAUN. Do you believe, Mr. Altman, that what you believe in that regard might have been different if you had if you knew then what you know now with regard to the overlapping? 488 Mr. ALTMAN. I would have done it sooner. I didn't, you know I didn't think about it until the very end of January, or the 1st of February because of the Ricki Tigert matter, so it wasn't on my mind for a great deal of time. But when I began to think about it I then took 3 weeks to make that decision and I should have taken 1 day. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Well, I think that will I'll conclude my questions and reserve the remainder of my questions for the second round, if we ever get to it this year. Senator SARBANES. Thank you very much. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Senator Hatch. Senator HATCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.,- Mr. Altman, I'm going to ask you about a telephone conversation you had with Harold Iles and George Stephanopoulos. It was on February 25. Do you remember having that telephone conversation? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, Senator, I do. Senator HATCH. In that call, according to your testimony in the deposition Mr. Ickes and Mr. Stephanopoulos raised with you the manner of the RTC's hiring of Jay Stephens as Outside Counsel in the Madison Guaranty case; right; Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, Senator Senator HATCH. They were both very upset by the fact that the RTC had actually retained the Pillsbury, Madison & Sutro law firm with Jay Stephens at that time or, at least, Jay Stephens? Mr. ALTMAN. Well, that was my sense es Senator HATCH. And they asked you how they had been hired; isn't that right? Mr. ALTMAN. In essence, yes. Senator HATCH. You understood from this telephone call that Mr. Ickes and Mr. Ste phanopoulos would have preferred that Jay Stephens not be hired nor working on the Madison Guaranty matter. That was, in essence, what you understood as well? Mr. ALTMAN. I understood the were unhappy that he had Senator HATCH. Sure. After this is telephone conversation, then did you speak about it then with Mr. Joshua Steiner; is that right? Mr. ALTMAN. At some point that day I did, yes, Senator. Senator HATCH. That's what he says. And you told Mr. Steiner you thought Mr. Ickes and Mr. Stephanopoulos were unwise to have called you about Jay Stephens. Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir, Senator HATCH. That's your own deposition, Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator HATCH. And the reason you thought that the telephone call was unwise is because it could reasonably have been construed as pressure on the RTC to get rid of Jay Stephens; right?
The World Series
The Yankee-Cardinal World Series moves to New York with the games even. One and One. In the third game, Mickey Mantle writes finish to the game as he hits the first pitch into the stands. Two to One........Yankees!!! In the fourth game, the Yankees score 3 runs in the first inning and the Cards are scoreless until the sixth when Ken Boyer blasts a grand slam homer and the Cards win...4 to 3...and tie the Series at two all. In the fifth game, St. Louis is leading - 2 to 0 - in the ninth when Tom Tresh ties it up with a two-run homer. The Cards come back in the tenth with 3 runs on Tim McCarver's round-tripper. Now they return to St. Louis for the grand finale. The Cardinals leading, 3 games to 2. Yankee Stadium New York wide angle shot of all the baseball fans. Mickey Mantle walking over to home plate. He slams the ball into the third tier of the stadium. Ken Boyer at home plate, he swings and connects with the ball with the bases loaded and he puts the Cardinals into the lead. Ken Boyer running around the bases racking up a homerun and his teammates are there to congratulate him on hitting the ball. People packed into the stadium sitting in their assigned seats. Tom Tresh at bat, he swings, he hits and he scores two homeruns. Tim McCarver at bat, and he too hits and scores a homerun. Cardinals are in front 5 to 2. Roger Maris at bat, he swings, he hits and its a pop fly and caught by Ken Boyer. Cardinals win another one.
Flood Toll Heavy: Kansas Hard Hit As Colardo Digs Out
Floods set off by violent thunderstorms range through six states - from Colorado to Arkansas. The South Platte River cut a mile wide swathe through Denver, causing damage in the millions. Fourteen known dead in Colorado as the flood moves into Kansas, the next hardest hit state. Dodge City, is flooded as the waters rise 14 feet within an hour. Colorado Aerial shot of floods. Colorado - Heavy damage in the industrial area. Men piling up bricks from destroyed buildings. Heavy damage and trailers carried down stream many miles. Three men standing among the heavy damaged buildings assessing the aftermath. A truck that had been carrier away by the flooding and lifted up and resting on some wreckage of buildings. Semi trailers that were lifted up by the floods and carried away. Kansas Kansas River, Bridge with a high level of the water flowing and lot of debris on the banks of the river. Aerial of Dodge City, Kansas - Flooded, water reaching the bottom of the windows on the houses and the tops of trees.
Bernard Baruch: Adviser To Presidents Is Dead At 94
One of the leading figures of our time is dead. Bernard Baruch, whose favorite office was a bench in Central Park. Mr. Baruch was a quiet philanthropist who gave away millions he accumulated as a financier and Wall Street broker. He was adviser to Presidents from Wilson to Kennedy.
Twins In Paris: Astronauts Hailed At French Air Show
The Russians scored a propaganda coupe at the International Air Show in Paris with their giant plane, world's largest. The United States came right back by showing two aces - Astronauts McDivitt and White who arrive from the U.S. aboard the Presidential plane. Aerial Shot - Air field. High Angle Shot - A variety of planes. Throngs on the air field. Air Force I plane taxiing with President Johnson, Vice President Humphrey and the astronauts White and McDivitt inside. French Dignitaries welcoming the plane while the passengers disembark. Profile of Vice President Hubert Humphrey and Colonel Ed White. Aerial - Missiles and people walking about on the grounds of the air field of LeBourget. French Air Industry luncheon, VP Humphrey. Vice President Hubert Humphrey laughing. First man in space, Yuri Gagarin surrounded by ladies signing autographs. 'Russian'. High Angle Shot - Colonel Ed White signing autographs. CU - Colonel James McDivitt signing autographs.
Missile Passes Test: Titan 3-C Is Most Powerful Known
The most powerful rocket known is launched at Cape Kennedy. It is the Titan 3-C, 127 feet of monstrous power that is boosted into space by two solid fuel rockets attached to its side. The shoot is complete success and foreshadows the orbiting of a 30-foot laboratory for study in outer space. Cape Kennedy, Florida The Titan 3-C sitting on its launching pad. MS - The Titan with its boosters attached to its sides. LS - Titan 3-C firing its engines. LS - Titan 3-C gaining altitude. LS - The rocket is covered by clouds and its a very cool shot of the twin engines excreting fire and smoke, the rocket levels off. Titan climbing into the atmosphere and finely it disappears into total cloud cover.
Will Rogers Hospital Expands
The Board of Directors of the theatrical hospital at Saranac Lake, N.Y., hear glowing reports of its progress and break ground for a new medical library and study center named in memory of Abe Montague, a former President of the hospital. Exterior shot of Will Rogers Hospital. LS the board of directors and trustees. Richard Walsh, board chairman. Board of directors. Interior of the building in a board room, all directors and trustees sitting. Doctor with x-rays of a chest and lungs. Lab technician and directors looking at lab equipment. Ground breaking ceremonies for the new library. Men with shovels breaking the ground for the new building. High Angle Shot - Bronze statue of Will Rogers.
"The Art Of Love" Has Premiere
There's a parade through the heart of Chicago to herald the world premiere of Ross Hunter's new picture - "The Art Of Love". One of the stars in the picture, Ethel Merman, is on hand and Ethel says she never had so much fun. Also attending is Ross Hunter. Shot of the marquee with title of film and the stars, James Garner and Dick Van Dyke. Downtown Chicago, State Street and its a parade. Ross Hunter riding in a convertible Cadillac waving to the people. Three beautiful models. A float. State Lake theater. Marquee, The Art Of Love, Ethel Merman, Carl Reiner, Miiko Taka, Dawn Villere and Victoria Carrolli. Ethel Merman 'Miss Broadway'. MS - Sign above the marquee - Ross Hunter's - The Art Of Love - James Garner and Dick Van Dyke.
August 2, 1994 - Part 9
(21:35:42) Mr. ALTMAN. I just thought it was an unwise thing to be asking about. Senator HATCH. Basically it would look like pressure. Mr. ALTMAN. It could be interpreted that way, yes. Senator HATCH. And in fact, you said to Mr. Steiner words to the effect that those guys at the White House must be crazy to try and fire Mr. Stephens; right? 489 Mr. ALTMAN. I don't remember my exact words, but I told them I thought it was an unwise thing to have done. Senator HATCH, That pretty well sums it up. Mr. ALTMAN. The essence of what you said is what I felt. Senator HATCH. And you were referring to Mr. Ickes and Mr. Stephanopoulos; isn't that so, when you made that statement? Mr. ALTMAN. Not as human beings, I have the highest regard for them. I thought bringing that subject up Senator HATCH. I'm not trying to get you in trouble. 1 want to get the facts down as far as I can, Were you referring to anyone else besides Ickes and Stephanopoulos. Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir. Senator HATCH. Now, Mr. Altman, could I please ask you to read a page from our diary. It's dated January 1 1, 1994, if you have that handy. We have a blowup here if you could read it from there, I don't know. Why don't you bold that up right here. Can you read it? It's pretty bard to read from there, Mr. ALTMAN. If you put that down, I'll read it right here. I want to point to it so just put it right Senator HATCH. Well, here. If you could, the part I'm asking for is-why don't you give him a copy. Mr. ALTMAN. I think I have the relevant pieces here. Senator HATCH. OK Well, if you'll read it, then Mr. ALTMAN. I have it, Senator. Senator HATCH. If you would read it for me. Mr. ALTMAN. I'm sorry, you want me to read it out loud? Senator HATCH. I don't think you have to read the whole page. .Why don't you just read where 'Maggie told me Hillary Clinton .was 'paralyzed." You don't need to even say that. Go down to Maggie's I strong inference." Mr ALTMAN. "Maggie's strong inference was that the White Ouse was trying to negotiate the scope of an Independent Counsel with Reno and having enormous difficulty." Senator HATCH. President Clinton asked Attorney General Reno appoint a Special Counsel to investigate the Madison/White water matter on January 12, 1994, if you'll recall. Mr. ALTMAN. I don't remember the exact date. Senator HATCH. The day before the President requested a Special Counsel I be named, you made that entry in your diary, basically strong influence was that the White House was trying to negotiate the scope of an Independent Counsel with Reno and have enormous difficulty." ALTMAN. Although, Senator I have since been advised that's true, and I drew the wrong inference. Senator HATCH. But that's what you wrote in your diary at the ALTMAN. That's true, but I do want to emphasize I drew an nee, Senator HATCH. But your source from whom you drew the inference was none other than Maggie Williams? Mr. ALTMAN. That's true, but I did draw the inference. It wasn't direct quote. Senator HATCH. And she was the First Lady's Chief of Staff? ALTMAN. Yes, sir. 490 Senator HATCH. The circumstances under which you developed this information occurred during a meeting you had with Ms. Wil- liams on Health Care, as I recall. Mr. ALTMAN. Well, my best recollection, because I normally interacted with Maggie on Health Care matters was that these comments were one set of asides to me during a Health Care meetin That's what I believe happened. Senator HATCH. But you say that notation in your diary is you believe to be untrue at this point. Mr. ALTMAN. No. I'm just saying Mr. Cutler looked into this matter and in his report he specifically references this, and he says that he found no evidence at all that that indeed was being done, that the White House was trying to negotiate the scope. I just defer to his report. Senator HATCH. On page 144 of your deposition, it says that you make the quote, then, you were asked the question, "What was the source of your information for that entry?" and then your answer was, "I believe it was Maggie Williams." But you're saying Mr. Cutler Mr. ALTMAN. No, the source of this was Maggie Williams. Something she said caused me to draw the inference. I'm simply saying that Mr. Cutler, in recent weeks during his investigation, specifically addressed himself to the question of whether, indeed, there were negotiations on the scope of the Independent Counsel's responsibilities, and he concluded there were not. Senator HATCH. Let me draw your attention to the words "strong inference." Didn't she or Maggie Williams convey to you that the White House was trying to negotiate the scope of the Independent Counsel with Reno and that the White House was having enormous difficulty or tremendous difficulty in doing so? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, that's the inference I drew, yes. I'm just simply saying Senator HATCH. She conveyed that to you. Mr. ALTMAN. That's the inference I drew. I did. I drew that inference. I'm just saying it has since been evaluated, and Mr. Cutler's report is clear on the extent to which it didn't happen,
August 2, 1994 - Part 9
(21:40:29) Senator HATCH. And according to--I don't know that Mr. Cutler can say it did or didn't. You're the only one who can. I don't know that he was even there, Mr. ALTMAN. No, I can't say it did or didn't either. I'm just saying that I drew that inference. I have no independent knowledge if, indeed, there were negotiations of that type. I've been told there were not. Senator HATCH. But, still you put the inference in your diary and Lot trying as I understand your testimony in your deposition-I'm not tring to give 0 a rough time I want to get this straightened out. You testified that you put things in your diary that you considered of historical significance. Mr. ALTMAN. To me. Senator HATCH, To you. Well, I think that's pretty good. And you previously testified that you would not put anything in your diary which you believed to be false; right? Mr. ALTMAN. Sure. I didn't intentionally write down anything false. 491 Senator HATCH. You understood at the time the question of whether a Special Counsel would be named was really a front-page story. Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, Senator, I did, Senator HATCH. In fact, you called it "the front-page story" in your deposition. Mr. ALTMAN. Whitewater was, Yes. Senator HATCH. But the question of Special Counsel. And you testified in your deposition that you had already been aware of the First Lady's displeasure with having an Independent Counsel named at all or appointed; right? Mr. ALTMAN. Well, the First Lady has said herself that she was reluctant to see that step taken. She's been very open about that, Senator HATCH. She has. Moving ahead a bit, there came a time on February 4, 1994, when Ms. Hanson made you aware, at least she said she did, that Bernard Nussbaum thought that the Independent Counsel charter could be read to give RTCs civil jurisdiction to Mr. Fiske. Were you aware of that? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't recall that but it may have happened. Senator HATCH. She said she did make you aware of that. Mr. ALTMAN. She may have. Senator HATCH. So you were made aware that the Independent Counsel charter provided Mr. Fiske or, at least, you knew that it provided him jurisdiction over the civil RTC cases as well. Mr. ALTMAN. Well, I believe Ms. Kulka testified, or at some point testified, that wasn't the case. And that in her view it couldn't be ,conveyed to the Independent Counsel. I believe she did. Senator HATCH. Why did you draw that inference? What did she say or do? Mr. ALTMAN. I was responding to your question about Ms. Han',son perhaps telling me on February 4, that it might be possible to convey the RTC's responsibilities to the Independent Counsel, and believe Ms. Kulka has since testified, or at some point, that in deed wasn't true, that they couldn't be conveyed. I had no inde- pendent knowledge of it, Senator. I'm not a lawyer. Senaotr HATCH. Sure. But nevertheless, you weren't unaware as head of RTC that the Independent Counsel would have, as well as criminal jurisdiction, civil jurisdiction in these matters as well? I you surely understood that? ALTMAN. I don't think I understood that the RTC could hand its civil responsibilities to the Independent Counsel. No, I wasn't aware. Senator HATCH. Let me move ahead to February 25, 1994, when You had decided not to recuse yourself and receive the telephone from Mr. Stephanopoulos and Mr. Ickes, They were both upset how you handled the recusal; right? ALTMAN. Yes, sir, about the manner in which they were noti- Senator HATCH. And they were upset in addition about the Stehiring. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator. HATCH. We've heard testimony that soon thereafter, Mr. Steiner suggested to Jean Hanson the General Counsel, that the 492 RTC civil case against Madison be turned over to Independent Counsel. Had you ever heard of Mr. Steiner's suggestion before? Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir. Senator HATCH. That was "no, sir"'? Mr. ALTMAN, No, sir. Senator HATCH. Did Mr. Steiner tell you of his statement to Ms. Hanson? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe he did, sir. Senator HATCH. Did you ever discuss with Mr, Steiner the issue of Fiske having RTC civil jurisdiction? issue Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe I did, sir. Senator HATCH. Well, again, we get back to the day before the President requested.that a Special Counsel be named, that you made this notation in your diary, which you must have thought was of historical significance. "Maggie's strong inference was"-you have a quote there, that "the White House was trying to negotiate the scope of an Independent Counsel with Reno and having enormous difficulty." How did you draw that inference and what did she do to cause you to draw that inference? Mr. ALTMAN. First of all, Senator, if I understand your question, and maybe I don't, I don't think that is related to the other question you asked me about the Steiner/Hanson conversation on convening the civil Senator HATCH. It's not. I'm just asking you Mr. ALTMAN. I drew that inference. which as I say is apparently now incorrect, from something that Ms. Williams said to me. Senator HATCH. What did she say to you that--how could you have drawn the inference? What did she say that would cause you to draw the inference and why should you withdraw it now just because Mr. Cutler says that it's wrong? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I'm not withdrawing it, I wrote it and that was the inference that I drew.
August 2, 1994 - Part 9
(21:45:27) Senator HATCH. That was my point. What did she say? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't recall her exact words. She said something to the effect that Senator HATCH. Testify generally. I don't care. Mr. ALTMAN. I just can't recall her exact words, but I wrote down what the inference of those words were as I thought of it. Senator HATCH. What's your best recollection of what she said and we'll draw our own inferences, then? Mr. ALTMAN. I really don't remember the exact words. I honestly don't. This was 6 months ago. Senator HATCH. Did she say anything similar to what you wrote there? Mr. ALTMAN. Well, I drew that inference and that's what I thought the words meant. Senator HATCH. See, I think you ought to stick with your diary rather than what Mr. Cutler says. certainly wasn't there. I mean, you you're re the person who was there. You drew the inference. I won't beat it to death but I just think it's an important part of this overall matter. Let me move on Senator SARBANES. Senator Hatch, I think we ought to go on. Senator HATCH. Maybe they'll come back to me. 493 Senator SARBANES. Well come back another round. Senator Murray. Senator MURRAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's always interesting to be last. Everybody ]has gone home. Everybody is bored. Everybody has moved on, but I've had the interesting perspective of sitting here and listening to all of this to and fro'ing for the last 51/2 hours and I have to ask myself, what really happened, and I kind of want to go through this. As my mother would say, were there any mortal sins? [Laughter.] There seems to be a real hangup here on whether you told Jean Hanson to inform the White House, or whether she assumed you had told her, or whether she went on her own. Nevertheless, she went to the White House to talk-and did talk to Nussbaum about criminal referrals. My understanding is that occurred at a meeting about Waco, and she just said that there would be press attention because the Clintons were named as possible witnesses; is that correct? Mr. ALTMAN. That's my understanding, Senator. Senator MURRAY. So Mr. Altman, how many organizations, independent or otherwise, have investigated this Hanson/Nussbaum discussion and determined it was not unethical? Mr. ALTMAN. Well, the Office of Government Ethics is the primary organization, I think, which has addressed itself to the ethical issues. Of course, there's been a legal investigation by Mr. Fiske, a very thorough one. There's also been Mr. Cutler's investigation and I know him to be a man of real independence, so I think one should take his conclusions as independent ones. Those three independent investigations have occurred. Senator MURRAY. And they all said there were no unethical discussions that occurred, Mr. ALTMAN. Mr. Fiske addressed himself to the legal issues, and I believe Mr. Cutler and the Office of Government Ethics addressed themselves to the ethical issues. Senator MURRAY. So it doesn't really matter whether you told her to go or whether she went on her own, because there was nothing unethical discussed Mr. ALTMAN. I agree with that. Senator MURRAY. OK We also seem to be hung up on how many contacts you had with the White House on Madison, and you responded at our Committee hearing on February 24, that you had one substantive contact, and it seemed to me when I was watching-the tape that Senator Gramm interrupted you, as you said "one contact." Were you going to add anything else? Mr. ALTMAN. No. I was going to describe the one contact I had, which I thought related to the RTC's investigation of Madison. I 'know there's a great debate about it and I know people disagree With me, but I believe today that I only had one contact that relates to the RTC investigation of Madison. Senator MURRAY. I heard Senator Gramm say earlietacts Do you have an idea what those 40 contacts were? any Mr. ALTMAN. I can't recite it from memory but I believe Mr. Cut- ler's chronology details most, or all, of those. 494 Senator MURRAY. Were some of them unreturned phone calls? Would those be considered a contact? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't know, Senator. Senator MURRAY. Well, you nevertheless answered the question it seems to me, in terms of substantive contacts. We now know that' there was somewhere between I and 40 depending on who you listened to. Re Regardless, 1 or 40, substantive or nonsubstantive, 1 think the real question is; Was there any information given to the White House that the public didn't have or would not have very soon? Mr. ALTMAN. The Office of Government Ethics addressed itself to that and it concluded that no nonpublic information was imparted. That may have been their conclusion about my meeting. I 'm not sure. But as you know, no ethical re gulations were violated, so in regard to my meeting, they conclude that no nonpublic information was conveyed. As an overall point, they concluded that no ethical regulations had been violated. Senator MURRAY. Essentially, it doesn't matter bow many contacts there were. There was no information imparted in any of those that shouldn't have been imparted? Mr. ALTMAN. That was the conclusion of the Office of Government Ethics. Senator MURRAY. Did the White House use any information from an of those contacts, whether it was one or 40, substantive or not, did they
Bermuda
Jamaica - Bahamas - street scenes, tourists, water skiing, sun bathing, poolside, baby shark out of water, golf, tourism
ON PREVIEW CASSETTE# 210102 Virgin Islands, Puerto rico, Beach, p. office, Alexander Hamilton's house, hotel, ruin of ?? windmill, sailboat, entrance gate ?? house, Morro castle, diving into bay, town, tourism Original detailed scene description found in original can: WEST INDIES NO. 1 - VIRGIN ISLANDS MS Beach scene with young couple walking in water. Caneel Bay St. John MS US Post Office as Christiansted, St. Croix MS Alexander Hamilton House, Christiansted MS Hotel, Chtistianted, St. Croix MS Beach, with boat in foreground and sand (backlight) MS Ruins of old Danish windmill LS Sail boat and Bay near St. John Island PUERTO RICO MS Entrance Gate and trees - governors House, San Juan LS Looking down on Morro Castle - sailboat in sea MS Boys driving off roof in bay for pennies - San Juan harbor LS Town in the interior of island
Nassau - policeman
August 2, 1994 - Part 9
(21:50:46) Mr. ALTMAN. No, ma'am the did not. Senator MURRAY. Is the Madison investigation, in fact, still moving forward? Mr. ALTMAN. When I left the RTC on March 30 and I haven't had any contact whatsoever of any kind with it since then so I don't know where it stands today. Senator MURRAY. Did you at any time use your position as head of RTC to improperly notify the White House regarding Madison? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe so, Senator MURRAY. And again, I'm curious about this one issue. Did the RTC or Treasury , to your knowledge, provide the same information to Members of Congress or their staff that you discussed at the February 2 meeting. Mr. ALTMAN. In terms of these procedural alternatives that the RTC faced on Madison and any other statute of limitation situation, I believe the answer to that is yes. Senator MURRAY. And to whom was that given? Mr. ALTMAN. Well, I wrote myself-I wrote a letter to Senator D'Amato. I wrote a response to 41 Republican Senators. There were at least 7 contacts between congressional staff and RTC staff, which I'm told involved the same procedural matters. Senator MURRAY. Did it include information on the statute of limitations? Mr. ALTMAN. I'm told that they did. Senator MURRAY. I think one of the other questions we're facing here is whether there was information given at the meeting with the White House that was nonpublic. It seems to me if Congress had it, 1 member or 40 members, it was no longer nonpublic. 495 Mr. ALTMAN. Again, the Office of Government Ethics reached that conclusion. Senator MURRAY. The other controversial issue here seems to be this issue of recusal, specifically whether you were to recuse yourself on February 2 or 24. We have this 3-week period. Did anything horrible occur duirng these 3 weeks that made a difference whether or not you recused yourself on the 2nd or on the 24th? Mr. ALTMAN. It had nothing to do with the investigation of Madison whatsoever. When I testified at the very beginning today, I said I thought recusal was a false issue because it bad nothing to do with the investigation and because, whichever way I decided, yes, to formally recuse or to remain de facto recused, the impact was the same, absolutely the same. Senator MURRAY. No action nothing occurred between February 2 and February 24 that made a difference whether or not you recused yourself at the beginning of the month or the end of the month? Mr. ALTMAN. No, Senator. Senator MURRAY. Thank you, Mr, Chairman. That concludes my questions. The CHAIRMAN. Let me suggest, we've gone now through and everybody has had one opportunity . You've been at the table a Ion time. Would you like to take a break? What would be your wish? Mr. ALTMAN. I'd appreciate a few minutes. The CHAIRMAN. Why don't we do this: It's now 5 minutes to 10 p.m. Why don't we take a 10-minute break and come back and I'd like to try to finish tonight. I know that if we don't stay with it, we're likely to go on over into tomorrow. So that's something everybody has to weigh. We've got other witnesses coming tomorrow. I know you've been here a long time. I think it's probably better if we can finish tonight. So let's have the Committee stand in recess for 10 minutes, and you have a chance to refresh yourself, and then well resume. (21:53:53) [Recess.) (21:53:55) Commentary of hearing hosts DON BODE and NINA TOTENBEG from tv studio, they also talk to Senator PHIL GRAMM
August 2, 1994 - Part 9
(22:08:50) Hearing resumes: The CHAIRMAN. The Committee will resume, and I understand that Senator Hatch is going to go next on this side. Senator HATCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Altman, continuing on here Senator D'AMATO. Can you speak into the microphone, Senator. Senator Hatch. I'm trying to. OK How's that? Are you aware, Mr. Altman, that White House officials held a meeting on March 1 to discuss your February 24 testimony to the ,Committee? Are you aware of that? Mr ALTMAN. I have--I think I learned that in Mr. Cutler's chronology or sometime right around here. Senator HATCH. Let me read to you Dee Dee Myers' notes of what at the participants in that meeting said 'Senator DODD. Senator, can you speak up a little bit? Senator HATCH. I'm trying. Apparently this isn't up high enough. Let me read Dee Dee Myers' notes. Senator DODD. That's better. Senator HATCH. I think I can read them accurately. "Roger said one substantive contact with White House staff"---what's that say there--yeah, I see---"I initiated it," meaning you. "Jean and I re- 496 quested to describe procedures 2/28 deadline. Explain process RTC, would follow. That was the whole conversation, was asked one question. Had no contact with HRC," Hillary Rodham Clinton, I believe, "BC." no contact with either the First Lady or the President. "RTC had no other contact," which is what you said and then in capital letters, she writes here "not true. White House informed him. Different memory. Assume he'll amend next week."
August 2, 1994 - Part 9
(22:10:37) So her particular notes indicate that your representation that you had no other contact was just plain not true. Now, were you aware that the White House regarded your testimony that you bad only one substantive contact as not true? Did they tell you that? Mr. ALTMAN. No, I wasn't. Mr. Podesta called me about a week after the testimony and he said-first 'thing he said was, what about the other two meetings, meaning the fall meetings, and I said to him I never beard of them and I believe he affirms that in his deposition. Senator HATCH. Let me get to that. Mr. ALTMAN. If I can just say Senator HATCH. Sure. Mr. ALTMAN. -the second thing he said was-the second thing he says he said and I'm sure he did, was recusal, and my answer, Senator, was I thought I responded properly to the question, and I believe that's what his account is and that's what I'm trying to say today. Senator HATCH. Let me read you Dee Dee Myers' notes of what Bruce Lindsey said at this March 1 meeting. Let's see, "didn't do anything"-OK. I won't read the whole thing. I'll just read what I consider to be the salient portions. It says, "White House officials say they advised him," meaning you, "to look at the legal and ethical obligations and make a decision." Subtext, "If there is no legal obligation, don't" and then exclamation point in brackets. Now, do you understand that the White House believed your failure to mention the recusal discussions when you testified on February 24 was misleading? Mr. ALTMAN. No, I wasn't aware of that, but let me say again, because this is real important, when Mr. Podesta called me, his account, and I assume it's true, is that he first asked about the fall meetings and I said I never beard of them and then be asked about recusal and I said I thought my answer was responsive to the question, Now, I know some people here don't agree with me but what I'm trying to say is that was my state of mind as affirmed by my response to Mr. Podesta. Senator HATCH. But you can see why I'm upset about it-I'm not upset but you can see why I'm raising this because Dee Dee Myers says in her notes when you represent there was only one substantive contact, "not true." And then you have Bruce Lindsey saying look at the legal and ethical obligations. If there's no legal obligation don't." Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I don't know what Dee Dee was referring to, but she could have been obviously referring to the fall meetings on the notion that I should have mentioned them and I didn't. 4 Senator HATCH. I don't think so. I think it was pretty clear she was referring to that but let me go to John Podesta. In Dee Dee Myers' notes again, "John Podesta then talked to Roger and told him that he had misspoken, could be misleading, assumed there was no way to correct record, write letter, et cetera, decided to leave it up to him how to do it." This was on March 1. Now, do you recall discussing your February 24 testimony with John Podesta of the White House on March 1? Mr. ALTMAN. I recall that conversation, yes, sir. Senator HATCH. Do you recall that Mr. Podesta told you that you had given misleading answers? Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir, I don't believe he did, I believe he asked me the two questions I mentioned that he did. Senator HATCH. You and Mr. Podesta did have a conversation on March I when be informed you that the White House was of the view that your failure to mention the recusal discussions, to use his terms, "did not fit within the frame of your characterization of the Meeting being procedural"; right? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I remember two points he raised with me. One was about the fall meetings, as I said, to which I responded that I never heard of them, and the other was about recusal, as I have remembered through his account. And I said that I thought my answer was responsive to the question, Senator HATCH. Well, let me help here a little bit. Let me read from Mr. Podesta's deposition. Question: Did you tell Mr. Altman on March 1 that it was the view of you and others that the White House record needed to be supplemented as to what was discussed at the February 2, 1994, White House meeting, specifically to include or to add the fact that recusal had been discussed? Answer: I think my conversation with him was that we were concerned about it. We thought whether or not it fit within the frame of his characterization as the meeting being procedural, that there would be a reaction to a further disclosure that the subject of recusal came up and that it may be best to supplement the record, My conversation closed without resolution on that point or any direction on my part that he needed to supplement the record with regard to recusal. He was going to consider it. My recollection was it was under consideration would. continue to--we would continue to kind of work as an issue or a problem. Now, do you remember discussing any of that with him?