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August 1, 1994 - Part 6
(17:59:45)(Beginning of tape #10061) Senator SHELBY. No, did he use that word, that phrase? Ms. HANSON. As I've stated, I don't recall the specifies of the conversation but that was the purpose of my task. Senator SHELBY, Did you make some notes about this for your records? Ms. HANSON. No. Senator SHELBY. Did you make some notes about this conversation? Ms. HANSON. With Mr. Altman? Senator SHELBY. Yes. Ms. HANSON. Not to my recollection. Senator SHELBY There is nothing you recollect from your notes about that conversation? Ms. HANSON. No, sir. (18:00:13) Senator SHELBY. I want to ask you this. Did you ever, ever think it was improper, as General Counsel, to brief the White House on something from the RTC that was basically confidential, something of this importance, dealing with a Justice Department-a referral to the Justice Department involving criminal behavior, possible criminal behavior? Ms. HANSON. Sir, I knew Senator SHELBY. I'm not talking about now, but before. (18:00:53)(Tape #10060 ends) Ms. HANSON. The conversation that I had with Mr. Nussbaum related to press inquiries that he was likely to receive. He was bound by the ethics regulations, and, in fact, was the Chief Ethics 115 Officer for the Office of the President. I was bound by the ethics rules as well. It never occurred to me that he would use that information for any purpose other than the governmental purpose that I intended it to be used for. Senator SHELBY. As General Counsel there at the Treasury and also working with the RTC in that role, did it ever occur to you that the information, once it left the RTC, could be left for many purposes, or could be leaked past the White House? Ms. HANSON. I was under the impression, and, in fact, I turned out to be right, that the information was going to be leaked. It was leaked out of the RTC to a number of news reporters. Senator SHELBY. Ms. Hanson, did you ever, ever check with Treasury or RTC ethics officers before meeting with the White House? Ms. HANSON. I didn't have to do that. I was familiar with the ethics rules. I understood how they operated. I understood that I was doing this for a governmental purpose, a proper governmental purpose, Senator SHELBY. Have you had second thoughts on that? Ms. HANSON. Excuse me? Senator SHELBY. Have you had second thoughts on that? Ms. HANSON. No. The Office of Governmental Ethics has said the same thing. Senator SHELBY. In your meeting at the White House, this has been touched on in your deposition and here, too, I suppose, but could you tell us for the record, again, what you basically told Mr. Nussbaum and the other gentleman. There was someone else there, too. Ms. HANSON. Mr. Sloan. Senator SHELBY, Mr. Sloan. Ms. HANSON. As I stated, I don't recall the specifics of the conversation. I don't recall exactly what I said. I Senator SHELBY. Did you take notes with you when you went down there? Ms. HANSON. I don't recall that I did. Senator SHELBY, You don't recall whether you took notes down there and you don't recall the specific conversation, but you do recall briefing him regarding the RTC information that was imparted to you? Ms. HANSON. That's right. Senator SHELBY. But, of your own recollection, you don't remember any of it now? Is that what you're saying to the Committee? Ms. HANSON. I don't remember, specifically, what I told him. Senator SHELBY. Could you, generally tell us what you told him? Ms. HANSON. Going back to Mr. Sloan's notes-which was a question I was asked Senator SHELBY. Are you referring to Mr. Sloan's notes now? Ms. HANSON. I'm referring to Mr. Sloan's notes of September 30, 1993. In looking at Mr. Sloan's notes, they do not refresh my recollection of having had a conversation with him on that date. There Is some information in here that I don't recognize, but the bulk of the information in Mr. Sloan's notes is what I recall having been told by Mr. Roelle. Senator SHELBY. Do you differ with his notes in any way? 116 Ms. HANSON. There are some things in here I don't remember. Senator SHELBY. What do you, differ with? Ms. HANSON. As I say, I don't remember. Some of the things in here I don't remember. I don't remember, for example, the water Co. I just don't remember that. Senator SHELBY. Yes ma'am. Ms. HANSON. The bulk of what is here is my recollection of. what I was told by Mr Roelle. Senator SHELBY. Do you have any reason-although you might not remember everything about what transpired in the meeting, do you have any real reason to differ with his notes? Ms. HANSON. No, no, sir. Senator SHELBY. Ms. Hanson, did you check with the Treasury' ethics officers before the February 2, 1994, White House meeting." I asked you, and you said no. Was that right? Ms. HANSON. I thought you asked about the September meeting. Senator SHELBY. Ok the first one. Did you check with the White House-did you check with the Treasury ethics officers before the February 2, 1994, White House meeting? Ms. HANSON. Yes, I did. Senator SHELBY. You did. What did they tell you, if anything? Ms. HANSON, We discussed, generally, the topics that Mr. Altman intended to discuss. Senator SHELBY. Did they talk to you about the propriety of the meeting and the perception of it? Did you go into that?
August 1, 1994 - Part 6
(18:05:12) Ms. HANSON. I spoke with the Deputy General Counsel, who is the Treasury designated agency ethics officer for his Senator SHELBY. What advice did you get, if any? Ms. HANsON. He said he didn't have an objection to the meeting. Senator SHELBY. No objection to the meeting. OK I believe you were asked earlier about when Mr. Altman testified before this same Banking Committee back in February-I forget the exact date--and you were in the audience. You were Counsel and seated right behind him, if I recall. Is that correct? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator SHELBY. I recall you using the phrase, and I quote, you thought that it "would require further elaboration" on some of his answers. Are those your words? Ms. HANSON. Those are my words. Senator SHELBY. Did you ever, while he was testifying, hand him a note or something to refresh his recollection about these questions that were being asked of him? Ms. HANSON. I recall handing him notes from time to time. Senator SHELBY. Do you recall if these were to correct some of his answers, and if he ignored the notes, or what? Ms. HANSON. I don't recall, sir. I recall that Ms. Kulka and I drafted a response to a question we anticipated during the hearing and gave it to him for him to look over, but I don't recall exactly what else. Senator SHELBY. What did he do with it, if anything? Ms. HANSON. He kept that one to use for an answer. It was a question that we didn't have a specific answer to, but drafted one during the course of the bearing. I passed him some other notes as well. don't recall what they were. 117 Senator SHELBY. Were some of those notes, and this will be-my time is up, but my last part of this suggestion--were some of the notes that you all would pass to him then, would they be to help him further elaborate on his answers, like we all do? Ms. HANsON. I don't recall that any-tbat there were any notes of that type. Senator SHELBY. OK My time is up. The CHAIRMAN. I want to yield to Senator Mack, who is going to continue on their side. I've spoken to Senator DAMATO. an I want to just take a minute myself, I'll elaborate on this more at a later point. I think for your reference, and the reference of any other person who comes before a Senate or House Committee in a situation such as the meeting we're referring to, if information is asked for by a Senator-let's keep it on the Senate side-and an incomplete answer is given, to get the information later is not the same thing as giving a full and responsive answer at the time, particularly if there are follow-up questions. If there is a pattern of questions that make it clear that Senators are trying to understand something, and there are incomplete answers one after the other, if you're there in the room and possess the knowledge, you should not allow that to go on. I think you have some obligation, you and anybody else in that situation, to respond in real time. That's why we have hearings. Yes, you put stuff in the record that you may not have the information on at the time. If you've got to go find something to put it in the record, that's one thing. If you are sitting there and you have the information and it's being withheld, that's another. That, in my view, is not proper, Whether you're the person doing the testifying or somebody you directly report to is sitting there doing the testifying and you or they are giving answers, not once, but more than once, that are incomplete and you recognize them to be incomplete I think there is an obligation to respond in real time. If you can write a note, as you say you just did with Ms. Kulka, on something else, you can certainly write a note in that area-and I say that not only to you, but everybody else who might be in an equivalent situation. A later response down the line, for the record, is not the same thing as a true and accurate response in real time. Do you understand what I'm saying? Ms. HANsON. I do understand what you're saying, sir. If I might, as I stated, Mr. Altman was testifying. He had questions and answers in front of him, and I had every reason to believe that he 'was testifying"-he was making decisions as he testified. The issues before us now have assumed much more importance and significance than they had at that particular time. As I stated, I expectfully expected that we would respond in an orderly way, and would respond fully and completely to every question. There was no intention on my_part, sir, not to do that. Senator SHELBY. Mr. Chairman, could I have 10 seconds on this follow-up because it relates? The CHAIRMAN. Of course. Senator SHELBY. Ms. Hanson, you say that Mr. Altman had the questions and answers before him. Were these a lot of the quesitons that were anticipated, like in the preparation for the overought hearing, and some of the answers that you all had prepared 118 and that he bad prepared himself to answer accordingly? Is that what you were referring to?
Lynda Bird Dedicates Ship
"President Johnson's daughter presides at the christening of a troop transport at the Brooklyn Navy Yard and is a smashing success." MS LYNDA BIRD JOHNSON and LUCI BAINES JOHNSON walking with U.S. Navy Admiral. LS two naval troop transport ships with patriotic bunting, several U.S. Marines in dress uniforms standing with backs to cam in FG. TLSs Lynda Bird Johnson christening the USS Austin. MS five white women sitting in front row of ceremony.
Canadians Celebrate Feast
"A blazing fireworks display winds up a week-long tribute to St. Jean Baptiste, Patron Saint of French-Canadians." Panning LS crowd gathered for fireworks display, night. LSs fireworks in nighttime sky. TLSs people scurrying from rain shower. MS teenage girls sitting on platform. TLS/MSs spinning fireworks on stands. LSs fireworks streaking into the nighttime sky; explosions, smoke. Neat LSs firework replica of Niagara Falls, shower of sparks falling.
Kennedy In Warsaw: Throngs Ignore Curb on Welcome
"Attorney-General Robert Kennedy & his family continue to enjoy riotous receptions behind the Iron Curtain. In Krakow, despite an official news blackout, the crowd gets the word & the Kennedy s spend most of their 6-hour visit on the roof of their sedan to escape the emotional crowds." High angle LS crowd surrounding car parked in street. MS U.S. Attorney General ROBERT F. KENNEDY, wife ETHEL KENNEDY, and three unidentified children (might be RFK Jr. and Mary Courtney Kennedy) standing on car, waving to crowd. MS elderly woman offering flowers to Ethel Kennedy. MS crowd surging on Robert Kennedy in doorway, RFK smiling grandly. TLS/MSs RFK, Ethel holding flowers, waving to crowd from stairs at Jagiellonian University. TLS/MSs Robert & Ethel Kennedy touring Jagiellonian facility. CU RFK. MSs RFK being shown Jagiellonian Globe. MS crowd smiling, pushing. Nice traveling MS Bobby Kennedy walking streets, waving. Panning MS throng of women wearing babushkas walking through courtyard toward Kennedy entourage; CU Bobby smiling, talking with women, shaking hands. TLS/MSs Kennedy s riding atop car traveling through streets, RFK standing & waving, Ethel sitting on hood & signing autographs. MS Bobby signing autograph, then standing, refusing to sign another one. MS Kennedy son (RFK Jr.?) signing autograph. TLS/MSs bronze statue of Thaddeus Kosciuszko on horseback; MS Robert Kennedy admiring statue. MS Bobby Kennedy speaking to crowd from top of car. More shots of Kennedy s riding atop car.
August 1, 1994 - Part 6
(18:10:44) Ms. HANSON. Yes. Senator SHELBY. But sometimes, in the heat of an oversight hearing or courtroom or so forth, you can't always anticipate the question because those questions are spontaneous. Is that correct? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator SHELBY. If be had a stock answer, it might not have been the proper answer to a spontaneous question? Ms. HANSON. That's correct and, in fact, that is what happened here. Senator SHELBY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Counsel just handed you the, preparation sheet that she's making reference to in this situation. You'll notice that last point is one of the contentious points in the sense that that had been reviewed and was a part of the formal written preparation.- This is what, really, she's making reference to right now. I thought, as she said that, you ought to have the document in front of you. Senator SHELBY. Sure, Mr. Chairman, I think what you were getting into is what I alluded to. I think it's very important that people answer accordingly and, if they've got information, bring it out then and not later. Right? The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mack. Senator MACK. Thank you, Mr. CHAIRMAN. Ms. Hanson, I want to go back to the September 30, 1993, memo, that you sent to Mr. Altman, where you have asked Bill Roelle "to keep me informed. Is there anything else you thin we should you, be doing?" Ms. HANSON. I gave my copy back. I'm sorry. Senator MACK. Can someone provide her with that memo again? Ms. Hanson, when you wrote, "is there anything else you think we should be doing?" is that in that memorandum? Ms. HANSON. Yes, it is. Yes, it is, sir. Senator MACK, Is the "we" you referred to you and Mr. Altman? Ms. HANsON. As I say, I don't have an independent recollection of preparing this memorandum, but I would interpret that to mean es, whether there was anything that we, Mr. Altman and 1, should be doing. Senator MACK. Did you attend or set up a meeting at the White House on October 14, 1993? Ms. HANSON. I attended a meeting. I didn't set it up. Senator MACK. Who attended? Ms. HANSON. From Treasury, Joshua Steiner, Jack DeVore, and myself. From the White House, Mr. Nussbaum, Mr. Sloan, Mr. Lindsey, Mr. Gearan, and I understand Mr. Eggleston was there as well, but I don't recall that. Senator MACK. I'm going to read you part of a memorandum that Bruce Lindsey-was he there? Ms. HANSON. Yes, sir. Senator MACK. Let me quote from the memorandum that Bruce Lindsey wrote on October 20, 1993, with reference to the October 141 1993, meeting: 119 One of the referrals, however, involved four cashier's checks each for $3,000. Two were made payable to the Clinton for Governor campaign and two were made payable to Bill Clinton. The checks were dated April 4 and 5, 1985. All four checks were deposited in the Bank of Cherry Valley. Gerth wanted DeVore to find out who had endorsed the checks. A check of our campaign records turned up three cashiers checks for $3,000 each from J.W. Fulbright, Ken Peacock, and Dean Landrum and a personal check for $3,000 from Jim McDougal signed by Susan McDougal. Later on in the memorandum he writes: The RTC believes that the funds for the cashier's checks came from a loan from Madison Guaranty to a Republican, but supposedly the Republican was unaware that some of the loan funds had been diverted. Do you have any recollection of that being discussed at that point? Ms. HANSON. I have a recollection of checks being discussed, and I've seen Mr. Lindsey's memo. It's unclear to me from that memo, the way it's written, whether information was discussed at the meeting or subsequently provided. I have no recollection of that last paragraph. I don't know what the source of that information is, and I don't recall having heard it. Senator DAMATO. Can I ask you something? Were you ever given that information? MS. HANSON. I'm sorry? Senator DAMATO. Were you ever given that information? Senator Mack has just relayed to you a memo. I want to know, in the briefing that you bad, did you ever get that information?
August 1, 1994 - Part 6
(18:20:18) Senator SASSER. I don't want to compromise the investigation. I think that's an important aspect of it. I think it's also an important aspect that the confidentiality be maintained to protect perhaps innocent citizens from defamation and damage to their character and integrity because of a referral that, really, might have no substance after the Justice Department examines it. Are there any penalties for the leaking of this-unauthorized disclosure of this information or for leaking it, to your knowledge? Ms. HANSON. It's a violation of RTC regulations, a violation of Office of Government Ethics regulations, and can be subject to personnel sanctions. 121 Senator SASSER. Mr. Roelle knew this was going on in the Washington office and he wanted to alert you to it. Did he make any statement as to what steps the RTC might be taking to try to stop this illegal and unauthorized disclosure of information? Ms. HANSON. No, sir. Senator SASSER. This whole series of events was triggered because of people in the employment of the Resolution Trust Corporation who were leaking this information in an unauthorized fashion. Were you simply being advised of this so you'd have a heads-up when it was coming, when it came in the press? Ms. HANSON. That's right, and all of the information that I was given by Mr. Roelle did appear in the press. Senator SASSER. As I understand it, from your previous testimony in the deposition, the information that appeared in the press was considerably more extensive than the information that had been given to you by Mr. Roelle, was it not? Ms. HANSON. That's correct. Senator SASSER. As a matter of fact, it even outlined the names of the various examiners-RTC examiners who were alluded to in the referrals. Didn't the press account give their names? Ms. HANSON. Of the investigators? Senator SASSER. Yes. Ms. HANSON. As I understand it, there has been significant information about the referrals that has appeared in the press for a very long time. Senator SASSER. Let me take you back, Ms. Hanson, to the meeting that you had on February 2, 1994. Did Mr. Altman, Roger Altman, the Deputy Secretary, at the February 2, 1994, meeting at the White House, inform the participants with regard to the Madison Savings & Loan that it was "unlikely the investigation could be completed, and then a recommendation made by the RTC Genera] Counsel, prior to the expiration of the statute of limitations"? In other words, do you have any recollection of Roger Altman making that statement in the meeting that it's unlikely Ms. HANSON. Quite-sorry. Senator SASSER. Go ahead. Ms. HANSON. Quite the contrary. In fact, the statement that he ,made and what was included in the talking points that he used for that discussion clearly stated that it was unclear when the investigation was going to be completed, but it certainly would be completed by February 28, 1994, which was consistent with my under,standing of what the RTC's position was. Senator SASSER. Can you give us any explanation of why Harold Ickes apparently recalls that Roger Altman made such a statement, that it could not be completed prior to February 28, 1994? MS. HANSON. I have no idea. Senator SASSER. Do you know of anybody else in the meeting who recalls Mr. Altman making that statement, other than Mr.Ickes? Ms. HANSON. I'm not familiar with anyone else's testimony sir, but it certainly wasn't made in my presence. Senator SASSER. Going back to the press leaks, did Mr. Roelle indicate that the Resolution Trust Corporation was going to try to 122 take any action to ferret out these leakers and deal with them an sort of administrative fashion? HANSON. No, sir. Senator SASSER. So he just seemed to be accepting the fact it here, we're going to send this confidential information to Washington ton and you better be on the look-out because it's going to be, the press shortly and you better know what it's about. Ms. HANSON. It seemed to be a fact of life at the RTC. Senator SASSER. I must say to you that I find that to be and I'm not-of course, you were a newcomer and didn't have much say about what goes on in the RTC operations, but I find it very dis-quieting that confidential information such as that would be routinely leaked, and that some in the RTC appear to have accepted that as a fact of life in the RTC Washington office.
Small cities
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Village on the waterfront
Small towns and streets
Cities, small towns
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Small country town
Small towns
Riverside County
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City - night - snow
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