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August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(19:35:19) Mr. ICKES. Senator, may I respond? Senator DOMENICI. That's the question. Answer it. Mr. ICKES. May I respond? Senator DOMENICI. Of course. Answer it. Mr. ICKES. First of all, you stated, I think, earlier in your long statement that Mr. Altman and I had gotten together on this testimony. That is absolutely untrue, Senator. I've never discussed with Mr. Altman this testimony or anything about it, point one, and I want that very clear for the record. Number two--number two, Senator, this statement that you've referred to--one can quibble about the words that were used, but the fact of the matter is there is a distinction, and I have made that distinction both in my testimony here today and in my open- ing statement, between a final determination as whether to proceed with a lawsuit, and there are a number of considerations, and the 423 lawyers on this panel know that. One is cost. Two is possibility of outcome. Three, when you're dealing with a Federal agency, presumably there's a chain of command you have to go through before those final decisions are made. They often take time. That is different, Senator, from having enough evidence to file a lawsuit to preserve a claim. So that is what I was talking about. I think I made that very clear both in my testimony here today and in my opening statement. And the final point, Senator, I was never asked the follow-up questions by Counsel. Senator DOMENICI. Mr. Ickes, do you have any idea how Roger Altman could be so certain before us that you were going to disavow your earlier statement about what was said with reference to the status of the preparation of the lawsuit? Where might he have Mr. ICKES. Senator, you'll have to ask Mr. Altman that. I did not hear his statement. I did not watch the proceedings. I don't know what he said, but I do know one thing and I've stated it several times before this hearing, that during the February 2nd meeting, it's my clear understanding from what Mr. Altman said that he was going to follow the recommendation of the staff attorneys. So while he was still technically the acting head or whatever his position was of the RTC, he basically, in my view, had taken himself out of the decisionmaking chain with respect to the Madison inquiry. Senator KERRY. Would my friend yield? Senator DOMENICI. Let me state one further thing. See if this is correct. You had a chance to correct this deposition, did you not? Mr. ICKES. I had a chance to correct it. I saw no need to correct it, Senator. Senator DOMENICI. And you had what some people think is the best lawyer in the United States on defense matters representing you, and you did not see fit to change this record with reference to this protective suit that you didn't tell us about? Mr. ICKES. Senator, I wasn't asked that question and I made clear in my opening statement the distinctions. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Domenici--- Senator DOMENICI. Is my time up? The CHAIRMAN. Time is up, but there will be another round for You to pursue this as much as you care to. Senator DOMENICI. I surely want to ask Mr. Ickes exactly what he considered the head of the RTC to be at that point. He maintains that he apparently was a figure head and I don't think they were treating him as a figure head. I think that's a very, very important issue for us to find the answer to. Mr. ICKES. Senator, I want to make two additional points, if I 'nay. My contemporaneous notes, which are on file with the Committee and are attached, I think, to my opening statement, made clear that one of the alternatives open to the RTC was to commence litigation to preserve claim, number one. Number two, I've been informed by my attorney that the only corrections we were Permitted to make on the record were typographical. 424 Senator KERRY. Can I point out to my friend from New Mexico, Senator Senator DOMENICI. Let me say that's not how we understand the depositions, and we'll just ask that question later on. You were given time to correct this record, not just to correct typographical errors. The CHAIRMAN. Before calling on you, Senator Kerry Senator DODD. What's the answer to that? Senator D'AMATO. There are Counsel here. Is that true? Mr. PODESTA. That was not my understanding. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Mine neither. senator DODD. What's the answer to the question? senator D'AMATO. What was the limitations as it relates to notes or corrections of records? We have both Counsel here, Majority. There's no limitation as it relates to corrections. Counsel said that they're on the record. It is said that if someone wants to correct the record and it's substantive, he may be redeposed on that change. There is no limitation, nothing about that you can make just typographical corrections, and as it relates to notes, the record shows very clearly that the notes were available.
Crowd at sporting event
01:58 Crowd at sporting event, daytime 02:10 LS crowd--possible along a street waiting for parade? 02:18 MS shots of stadium crowd. Sunny summer day. Kids.
Crowd Outside Arena
04:28 Crowds outside arena-rodeo. overhead shot of people milling about in front of gates. Entrance to Rodeo arena.
Sports (list on box)
Soccer Crowds
Var. shots of soccer fans cheering. They look into the camera and smile, hoot and holler for their team. Looks like an international crowd with the flags of different countries (possible Ireland and Germany among them but hard to tell) visible within the different groups of people filmed. People are dressed for cool weather. Last shot is great--camera faces crowd in stands as bright sun shines on them. groups of spectators are separated by empty sections of seats and the lighting makes everything look very flat. As if the people are sitting on top of each other. Very geometric.
Rose Bowl football game
Sport crowds
02:40 Sport crowds on sunny bright day. Wide shots and close. 03:36 Clowns on float waving. Looks like parade. Shot is only 3-4 secs.
Rose Bowl Spectators
03:41 Football crowds - Rose Bowl. medium and wide shots of crowds in packed football stadium on sunny afternoon. Lots of flag-waving and cheering. Cheerleaders face crowd and cheer.
Audience -water sports
Water Ski Spectators and Judges
Woman in yellow bikini sits behind what appears to be judges' table. Spectators are seated behind her.
Boat Racing audience
Audience watching boat racing. Shot from behind a row of people standing at waterfront on sunny sfternoon. They are wearing bathing suits and stare at the water but it doesn't look as if anything is happening yet.
Baseball spectators
Wide shots from stadium of baseball game and stadium crowds in background. Shot is taken from stands beyond first base. Can see first base and home plate as well as the crowded stands behind them.
Baseball game crowds B/W
Crowds - flag (B/W neg)
Sport crowds (scratch print)
Couple on bicycle
Motorcycle (hill climbing)
Bicycle riding
Motorcycle race on sand
August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(19:40:33) The CHAIRMAN, In any event, is that clear to you, Senator Dodd? Senator DODD. It is, but it's quite clear as well, the point you're giving, the testimony, and this is done in depositions for good reason, that a witness in a deposition is not allowed to refer to their notes. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. May I read into the record what was read to us by the Counsels when we testified? The CHAIRMAN. Just a moment. I'll permit you to do that. Senator DODD, Let me complete it here. There's a point. I'm looking at his testimony. He's got his lawyer saying "guess." You call in the best lawyer in America-when my lawyer tells me to guessyou 've got a testimony that's prefaced by "guess." Now your notes are in front of you. That's a little disconcerting, but what he does and I think it's so important, Pete, on page 122, line 18 down to line 22, this is Mr. Ickes, that "it was his understanding"-and he's talking about Altman-----"that the investigation probably could not be concluded and that a determination could not it be made by the RTC's General Counsel as to whether there was a basis for a civil claim." Now, we know that's not true because Ms. Kulka testifies that that's not the case on February 1. So the issue is concluded. Now, if you could look at your notes instead of saying concluded, com pleted or concluded suit, and you see that the options are commence litigation to preserve a claim, that's your protective claim, or seek a tolling agreement. So your notes could help you in re-,. sponding to that kind of a question. Instead, you have Mr. Bennett say, "Go ahead. Guess. Do your best." I just point out that's a bit of a problem when you're getting into this. Senator KERRY. May I also point out Senator DOMENICI. Will you yield since I yielded to you? The CHAIRMAN. I'm going to make a point here. I want to into the record, so there's no further confusion about it, what the procedure was that was available for correcting testimony in a dep- 425 osition because this was the format that we followed, and I'm just going to read it verbatim into the record. "The deposition after it's prepared will be kept Committee confidential. However, if your attorney wants to review it or you want to review it, you can make arrangements, and we spell out how to do that and for you to read it." I'm dropping down, "it may be reviewed," and tells the time in which it is generally available for doing that and it says-it makes it very clear that it can be reviewed by the person giving the deposition or the attorney. Then it says "with respect to changes, there will be a jurat page supplied to you to make corrections, so if you find a mistake in the review, you put it on that page. Your attorney can explain a jurat page. That will allow you to make changes, for instance, if a person's name is used and it's misspelled. That can be changed. Minor corrections in transcription if there's some grammatical change you wish to make. "However, I will tell you if there are changes made in the substance of an answer, for example, a yes changing to a no, that may require you to be brought back in and redeposed and I want to make you aware of that. It should not deter you, however, from making changes. Since some Counsel believe they can make changes in the depositions themselves, we have clarified if changes are made on the jurat page, they are to be made by the witness and not by the Counsel." That was the instruction that was given. That's the ground rule that we followed. I just want to put that into the record so that it's clear that there was that opportunity for review, that is the normal practice in which it's done, and I take it that that's the instruction that you all received at the time, and that there's really no dispute about that part of the procedure. Would that be fair? Mr. ICKES. There's no dispute about that, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Very good. Senator Domenici. Senator DOMENICI. Senator Dodd, with reference to the note taking, could I refer you to page 87 of the deposition of Mr. Ickes? Senator DODD. I'm going to have to get that. Senator DOMENICI. Let me read it for you. "Question: Did individuals take notes" Senator DODD. Where are you on the page, Pete? Senator DOMENICI. Page 87, second line. Question: Did individuals take notes at those meetings, if you noticed? Answer: Some individuals did. Question, Did you take notes? [Witness conferred with counsel.] Answer: I kept notes. Question: Would it be correct to say that if they pertained to the scope of the Senate Resolution 229 that they have been delivered to the Committee? Answer: Yes. Question: And you have reviewed your notes yourself or along with your attorney? Answer: I have, So it isn't as if he didn't review his notes. He had reviewed them and admitted that and maybe that's the
Sports: Irish-Trained "Pavot"
Sports: Irish-Trained "Pavot" Queen Elizabeth and the cream of English society attend the world's toniest race: The Royal Ascot. The two-mile Queen's Vase is won by "Pavot", an Irish-trained horse that had never won a race before. Millinery, hat fashions. Man wearing top hat, looks through binoculars at race. Crowded stadium. Footage from race. Two women wear sophisticated hats. Spectators behind fence.
Mamie And Ike Back In Washington
Same as catalog #520330 Mamie And Ike Back In Washington Mrs. Eisenhower visits with Mrs. Kennedy at the White House -- her first visit since alterations were completed. Mamie getting out of car, wearing short sleeve floral dress, hat and black elbow length gloves. CU cameraman, panning camera. Mrs. Eisenhower and Mrs. Kennedy stand together for a photo op. Jackie wears sleeveless dress and long pendant necklace. Later Mamie and former President Eisenhower attend an outdoor breakfast in their honor. Mrs. Eisenhower shakes woman s hand. Ike greets couple. Outdoor breakfast, people seated at tables. Ike and Mamie shown eating breakfast at separate tables.
Dean Rusk In Berlin
Same as catalog #520336 Dean Rusk In Berlin On a European tour that includes, Rome, London, Paris, and Lisbon, Secretary of State Dean Rusk visits West Berlin and sees the Berlin Wall for the first time. Barricades, military truck driving off in the distance. Mayor Willie Brandt ? tours Berlin wall with Dean Rusk. Crowd of people wave behind barricade.
A Queen In Yonkers
Same as catalog #520334 A Queen In Yonkers Queen Mother Elizabeth of Belgium visits 13 year old Joey Alfidim, a composer-pianist, at his home in Westchester. They're pen pals. CU grill of car, elderly woman queen mother of Belgium greets young man, kisses him on both cheeks. Press, photographers. CU music on piano. Queen seated listening as Joey performs. Joey assists queen mother outside.