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August 4, 1994 - Part 1
(09:00:21)(tape #10087 begins) Hearing coverage title screen (09:00:25) Hearings hosts KEN BODE and NINA TOTENBERG introduce day's hearing from tv studio, (09:02:45) President BILL CLINTON gives a lengthy answer to a reporter's question at a press conference about if he'll keep on ROGER ALTMAN in the treasury department (09:04:33) Back in studio Bode and Totenberg speak with Senator CHRISTOPHER BOND (09:12:20) Hearing begins: HEARINGS RELATING TO MADISON GUARANTY S&L AND THE WHITEWATER DEVEL OPMENT CORPORATION-WASHINGTON, DC PHASE THURSDAY, AUGUST 4, 1994 U.S. SENATE, COMMITTEE ON BANKING, HOUSING, AND URBAN AFFAIRS, Washington, DC. The Committee met at 9:12 a.m., in room 106 of the Dirksen Senate Office Building, Senator Donald W. Riegle, Jr. (Chairman of the Committee) presiding. OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN RIEGLE The CHAIRMAN. The Committee will come to order. Let me welcome all those in attendance this morning, and invite those in the room to find seats so that we can begin. Let me indicate that we are starting today our fifth day of hearings being conducted here by the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs on the so-called Madison Guaranty Whitewater matter which was authorized, and instruction to do this provided to us, by Senate Resolution 229. There are three panels that are scheduled to appear before us today. All of the witnesses testifying today are current or former White House personnel. The first panel, now seated before us, and that we will hear from soon, consists of Thomas "Mack" McLarty, who is the Senior Advisor to the President and the former Chief of Staff to the President. Also Margaret Williams, Chief of Staff to the First Lady of the United States. The second panel consists of Harold Ickes, who is the Deputy Chief of Staff to the President. Mr. George Stephanopoulos who is a Senior Advisor to the President. Mr. John Podesta, who is Assistant to the President and Staff Secretary. And then finally, in that panel, Mr. Bruce Lindsey, who serves as Assistant to the President and Senior Advisor. The third panel will consist of Bernard Nussbaum, who served as the former Counsel to the President of the United States. I should say, by the way, that the White House has been very cooperative in making witnesses available to us, and we appreciate that. 270 As with our prior hearings, we are looking forward to listening to our witnesses, so that they can help fill out all the information that we need to have regarding events relating to whether or not there was any improper conduct that may have occurred regarding communications between officials of the White House and the Department of the Treasury or the Resolution Trust Corporation relating to the Madison Guaranty issue and related matters. So let me now, having introduced our two witnesses that are here this morning, ask you, if you would please, to stand and raise your right hand while I administer the oath. [Witnesses sworn.] Very good. Thank you. I believe you both have opening statements that you wish to make, and Mr. McLarty, we will start with you, and we would like your statement at this time. Senator BRYAN. Mr- Chairman, if those opening statements are available to the rest of the Committee, may we have them distributed? Thank you. [Pause.] The CHAIRMAN. Let me just say, Senator Bryan, and I appreciate your request, and the statements, we are getting them, but we are getting them, because of the pressure of time, pretty much just before witnesses appear, but it is very, important that Members have them available for reference. Mr. McLarty.
August 4, 1994 - Part 1
(09:15:50) TESTIMONY OF THOMAS F. McLARTY, III, COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO THE PRESIDENT, WASHINGTON, DC Mr. McLARTY. Mr. Chairman, Senator DAmato, and other Members of the Committee, my name is Mack McLarty, and I currently serve as Counselor to the President As you know, it was my privilege to serve as the President's Chief of Staff from the time of his inauguration until June 17th of this year. I testified before the House Committee on Banking, Finance and Urban Affairs, and I provided a written statement to that Committee. And, Mr. Chairman, as you have already discussed, I have requested that I be permitted to attach that statement to this one. I would like to simply summarize that testimony here so that we can move promptly to your questions. Let me say at the outset that the White House very much respects the role of this Committee and its oversight responsibilities. As you know, the President instructed all White House personnel to cooperate fully with your inquiry and to appear voluntarily when asked to do so. As you also are aware, a number of independent authorities have reviewed the contacts between the Treasury and the White House concerning the Madison matter. The Special Counsel, the Grand Jury, the Office of Government Ethics and the White House Counsel. And they have all determined that the contacts violated no laws. 271 The Office of Government Ethics and the White House Counsel, Mr. Cutler, examined the contacts in light of ethical standards, which of course are tougher than legal ones. I specifically asked Mr. Cutler to do that and to do so in hindsight. Both he and the Office of Government Ethics concluded that no one acted unethically. Even if I am repeating the obvious, I want to make certain that Congress and the American people understand a very critical point. No one attempted to influence the RTC's decisionmaking. No one attempted to influence the RTC's decision on whether or when to bring claims against individuals in connection with the failure of Madison. As we apply hindsight to these events, however, it is obvious to all of us that some of the contacts were unwise. The White House has already implemented Mr. Cutler's suggestions, and they will assure in the future that all contacts with regulatory agencies about on- going reviews and investigations will be approved by or, even better, limited to White House Counsel. I would like to emphasize, as I did before the House Committee, the importance of keeping the Madison Whitewater matter in perspective with some backdrop. The period the Committee is reviewing extends roughly from the end of September to the beginning of March. And during that period, the White House was extraordinarily busy and very productive, even though some time, of some White House personnel, was spent responding to various Whitewater inquiries and controversies. Specifically, we concluded the North American Free Trade Agreement and lifted the sanctions against South Africa. We reinstituted the Super 301 Trade Powers. We obtained a GATT agreement which, as all of you know on this Committee, had been outstanding for a number of years, and the President convened the APEC conference in Seattle and brought our G-7 allies to Detroit for a major conference on jobs. At the same time, the President was traveling to Europe, bringing his leadership to NATO and outlining his partnership for peace initiative, and holding major talks with President Yeltsin and other Russian leaders. On the heels of last year's economic legislation, which was critical to getting our fiscal household in better order, we set out to improve the social fabric of our country. Working closely with the Members of Congress, we enacted major educational reform, including Goals 2000.
August 4, 1994 - Part 1
(09:20:24) As all of you know, the President introduced major health and welfare reform legislation that our country so badly needs, and after getting the Brady Bill passed, we are on the threshold of passing a sweeping and a meaningful crime bill. And our 1995 budget and related appropriations bills are moving forward in an orderly and a timely manner. I also want to emphasize, and to say very sincerely, that the people who work in the White House are some of the finest people that I have ever known. They are dedicated public servants and represent our Nation's very best, as they should. It was a privilege for me to be their Chief of Staff and it continues to be a privilege for me to work with them on a daily basis. If there were errors, they were made in good faith. None of US are perfect and none of us ought to assert that we are. And I am confident that this Committee, like the Special Counsel, the Office of Government Ethics, and the White House Counsel will conclude that no one did anything wrong, that we served our President and our country well, and that now it is time for us to get back to work. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. McLarty. Ms. Williams, we would like your statement now please. TESTIMONY OF MARGARET A. WILLIAMS, ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT AND CHIEF OF STAFF TO THE FIRST LADY, WASHINGTON, DC MS. WILLIAMS. I am Margaret Ann Williams, Assistant to the President and Chief of Staff to the First Lady. I am grateful to Chairman Riegle and the Members of the Senate Banking Committee for the opportunity to address you concerning my very limited contact with the Treasury Department in connec. tion with the work of the Resolution Trust Corporation. That contact was confined to a meeting on February 2nd of this year, and an encounter with Deputy Treasury Secretary Roger Altman several days later. But prior to my testimony, I think the Committee might find it useful to know a little about my professional background and my duties and responsibilities as Assistant to the President and Chief of Staff to the First Lady. My appointment to President Clinton's staff came after a brief stint with the Clinton-Gore campaign, where I served as Mrs. Clinton 's communications director. I joined the staff of the Children's Defense Fund in 1985, as a senior media analyst responsible for developing and overseeing an advertising campaign on teen pregnancy prevention. In 1988, 1 became CDS director of media affairs and served on CDS's six member management committee. Prior to CDS, I worked for the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, developing a media relations program for that organization. I have served as a campaign press secretary and a national and congressional campaign secretary and held a number of media-related jobs. I hold a master's degree from the Annenberg School of Communications at the University of Pennsylvania. As one of seventeen Assistants to the President, I participate, as directed by the Chief of Staff to the President, in management issues and communications meetings and work groups. As Chief of Staff to the First Lady, I manage, direct, and advise a staff of thirteen who support the activities of the First Lady. Those areas include policy, press relations, White House events and social activities, scheduling and correspondence. Because of Mrs. Clinton's involvement in Health Care policy., spend a good deal of time facilitating selective Health Care admin- istrative and policy issues across White House departments and the Cabinet. Late last year, the number of Whitewater press inquiries began to increase and my staff was required to spend more and more time answering these questions. Let me make it clear that I was not involved in the legal representation of the President or Mrs. Clinton. My activities with regard to Whitewater generally involved addressing management and information concerns related to overwhelming media interest in the matter. I made a conscious decision that I and other members of the First Lady's staff would not use our time with her discussing Whitewater unless we were trying to obtain facts to answer press inquiries, facts which could not be found elsewhere. I believed that our priority, and it was my job to keep us focused on our priority, was health care, and that we could keep our focus and help Mrs. Clinton to keep her focus by using the time we had with her on health care and on her many official and social obligations. Let me now address my involvement in the meeting of February 2, 1994.
Elizabeth II
The "Queen Elizabeth" is launched in Clydebank, Scotland, by Queen Elizabeth. The push-button launch sends the lady who replaces the Queens "Mary" and Elizabeth down the ways, after a slight delay. A panoramic shot of the ship in harbor. Dignitaries gather around the queen who stands at a microphone. The queen pushes the launch button to embark the ship. The ship slides down a ramp and into the sea. Various shots are made of the decline. The ship rest in the harbor.
August 4, 1994 - Part 1
(09:25:29) The meeting was placed on my calendar by my assistant. She noted in the entry that the Office of the Chief of Staff wanted me to attend a meeting regarding the statute of limitations. This was the only information I had about the meeting prior to joining it. I had no discussions with Mr. Altman about the issue raised at the meeting prior to the meeting, nor did I have any contact with anyone at the Treasury Department concerning the subject of this meeting prior to it being held. I joined the February 2nd meeting in progress. Mr. Altman, with whom I had had previous contacts, as a member of the Administration's health care team, was speaking to the assembled group. As I recall, Mr. Altman was explaining a process by which the Resolution Trust Corporation staff would present to Mr. Altman a recommendation as to whether or not to seek a waiver of the statute of limitations from the President and Mrs. Clinton in connection with the RTC's investigation of an Arkansas bank. The significance of this for my office was that if and when a waiver were sought, it was sure to generate a new wave of press inquiries, to which my office, in conjunction with the rest of the White House, should be ready to respond. Mr. Altman went on to explain that he might not be the official to whom his waiver issue would be presented. In this context, he raised the issue of recusal from the process he was describing. He then explained that if he recused himself, a member of the RTC staff would make the final decision. He also stated that, in any case, if he did not recuse himself, he intended to follow the RTC staff recommendation, whatever it might be. I took him to mean that he did not see any need to overrule the RTC staff and that they would decide the proper way to discharge their duties. I then expressed my personal reaction to what Mr. Altman had said, questioning why he would recuse himself if he intended to follow the staff recommendation. 274 It seemed to me, by accepting the staff recommendation, no one would challenge his integrity. I recall Mr. Nussbaum responding to my statement by saying it was a decision that Mr. Altman would have to make. I do not have a clear recollection of the rest of the meeting. it lasted for approximately 45 minutes? I left the meeting when it was over. I took no action, other than to make a mental note to be alert to events on this issue as they unfolded. Several days after the meeting on February 2nd, I received a call from Mr. Altman telling me that he had decided not to recuse himself, and asking if I could gather a few White House staff members so he could make his announcement. I do not recall if Mr. Altman specified the staff members; however, I did call the White House Counsel's Office and reached Mr. Nussbaum or Mr. Eggleston, I cannot recall whom. I called Mr.'Ickes and Mr. Stephanopoulos. Mr. Altman stopped by my office in the west wing shortly thereafter and spoke briefly to the individuals who had gathered in my office, and then hurried away to his next appointment. That concludes my prepared remarks and I welcome any questions this Committee might have. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Ms. Williams. Let me pick up right at the end of your statement on this second meeting when Mr. Altman came back to indicate that he had decided not to recuse himself. What did he say in that meeting?. Ms. WILLIAMS. He said I am not going to recuse myself. I have decided not to recuse myself The CHAIRMAN. How long would you say that meeting lasted? MS. WILLIAMS. It did not last long at all, because Mr. Altman had another appointment to get to. He was in fact standing, as I recall, and had his briefcase in his hand. The CHAIRMAN. Did he give his reasons? Ms. WILLIAMS. No, he did not, not that I recall. The CHAIRMAN. Now, do I understand, you indicate that your best estimate is that the meeting the day before lasted about 45 minutes? Now last night, Mr. Eggleston estimated that about half the, meeting time was devoted to the recusal issue. Would that be your recollection, or not? Ms. WILLIAMS. I have not thought about the amount of time,' quite frankly. I just remember, on the whole, it was about 45 minutes. The CHAIRMAN. Well, I want you to think about it for a minute. How long do you think the recusal part would have taken, as a percentage of the whole meeting? Ms. WILLIAMS. Well, since I came in late to the meeting, it is dif- ficult for me to say if it were half of the meeting. I do not recall, the exact time that I came into the meeting, but it was in progress, They had settled into a meeting.
All-Star Golf
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Women from 1800s
ON PREVIEW 98100 Women from 1800s Jumping over fence
Department Store Scenes
PREVIEW 98100 Department Store Scenes - Goldblatt's (?)
Speed Spectacular Scenes from
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National Clothing - Old Fashion
Silent B&W shots of women and man posing in the latest (1950s) fashions. They look like store mannequins, with the stiff poses of store window display. Man in moustache stands with his arms spread, and magically shirts appear in his hands. ON PREVIEW CASSETTE 98025
Pearl Harbor
Makapu Beach
Pearl Harbor
Government Buildings
Honolulu
Long Shot over a cliff, and into a valleyPali view
August 4, 1994 - Part 1
(09:30:18) But I was there for some discussion of the recusal, but I do not, know how much time. 275 The CHAIRMAN, When Mr. Altman testified before us the other day, he indicated that in the hours before the meeting on the 2nd, the first meeting here of the two, that he had reached a decision to recuse himself, and that he was going to express that view at that first meeting on February 2nd, the one that we have just discussed and you arrived at a little bit late. And so he came into that meeting. Were you there at the time when he indicated that he had decided that he was going to recuse himself? Ms. WILLIAMS. I do not believe that I was there, because my general understanding was that he was in a decisionmaking mode; that he had not necessarily made a decision. The CHAIRMAN. Well, he must have given some indication as to his intention, did he not? Is that not what triggered the discussion? MS. WILLIAMS. Well, what triggered my interest and I guess my attention in the discussion itself, was his discussion of the process by which the President and Mrs. Clinton would be asked to possibly waive their rights to the statute of limitations. And so I responded, in terms of the recusal, to the limited question of whether or not they would be asked to waive their rights and the process by which this decision would be made. If the RTC staff would make the decision or, on the other hand, I believe he said, or on the other hand, if I decide to recuse myself, the RTC staff will make the decision. If I stay in the position then I will be making the decision. That is what triggered the discussion for recusal for me. The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Altman had a briefing sheet from which he was working in that meeting on the 2nd, I want to read you the last line on his briefing sheet. This was prepared ahead of time, and he affirmed that in his testimony here just a day ago, On this briefing point, he says this: I have decided that I will recuse myself from the decisionmaking process as Interim CEO of the RTC because of my relationship with the President and Mrs. Clinton. And so the clear sense we have from his testimony was that he had made this decision, he went to the meeting with an intention to express it, and did so. Now I want to know whether you heard that part of the discussion or not? I know you have testified that you thought that he ought not to recuse himself. MS. WILLIAMS. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. And I am going to come to that in a minute. And apparently Mr. Nussbaum also expressed himself that Mr. Altman should not recuse himself. But are you saying to us, did Mr. Altman, when you were there, indicate that his intention was to recuse himself? Ms. WILLIAMS. Sir, I am saying to you, to the best of my recollection I did not hear him say that. The CHAIRMAN. All right, now let me get to the point, the view expressed by others in the room. In your deposition, you have indicated to us that your reaction to this discussion was that he ought not to recuse himself. 276 The CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, with Mr. Nussbaum, did Mr. Nussbaum indicate his opinion that Mr. Altman ought not to recuse himself Ms. WILLIAMS. I do not recall exactly what Mr. Nussbaum said but I do recall that after I made my statement, that Mr. Nussbaum had said, whatever the decision Mr. Altman will have to make it or something to that effect. As I indicated in my statement, although now I wish I had been much more attentive, at the point that I felt I understood from Mr. Altman what the process was to be, because that really is what I was interested in at that point, and I had had my say, I must admit to you that my attention wandered from that meeting. I was racing on to the next thing I had to do. The CHAIRMAN. Now the indications we have are that Mr. Nussbaum did express the view that Mr. Altman should not recuse himself and apparently had a very strong feeling about it. You are not aware of that?
Johnson In Hawaii: President Meets With Saigon Leaders
Crowds at the Honolulu airport greet President Johnson as he arrives with top advisors for a Summit conference with South Vietnamese leaders. It is a meeting without precedent and is designed to strengthen United States determination to pursue to the end the drive against Communist domination in South Vietnam. Honolulu, Hawaii People standing behind the gates at Honolulu airport waiting to greet President Lyndon Baines Johnson. CU - United States of American, Air Force 1, taxing down the runway. MS - United States honor guard stands at attention. MS - President Johnson disembarking from Air Force One, accompanied by his political aid and some South Vietnamese leaders. MS - President Johnson shaking hands with some military high brass. MS - General Westmoreland being hugged by his 17 year old daughter on her return back to Hawaii. MS - General Westmoreland's 17-year old daughter hugging and kissing President Johnson. POV - President's motorcade passing people lined up on the streets who came out to greet him. CUS - President Johnson shaking hands with every one who wishes to greet him.
Soviet Moon Landing: Lunar IX Transmits Photos To Earth
The Soviet finally achieve a soft landing on the moon after at least four previous failures. Their Lunar IX sends back pictures that are received in England before the Russians have anything to say. The United States is not expected to put a Surveyor craft on the moon until this summer. POV - Looking up at the moon. CU - An animated picture of the Lunar landing vassal. MS - Another animated picture of the space craft leaving the earth and traveling to the moon and landing. MS - Closing in on the moon, they show how the surface would be. MS - A technician sitting a the controls of a master telescope, Jodrell Bank Conservatory in Manchester, England. Camera panning shot - The world's larges antenna. CUS - Another technician collecting and recording signals from the Russian Lunar Space Craft. CUS - Technician interpretations of the Russian's space signals. MS - The surface of the moon.
Worst Air Crash: Tokyo Disaster Takes 133 Lives
The worst single plane disaster in history takes the lives of 133 aboard a Japanese airliner as it plunges into Tokyo Bay just seconds away from a landing. The giant American jet was carrying the holiday visitors back from a tour of Japan's famous winter carnival at Hokkaido in the north. Tokyo, Japan Night time where throngs stand looking out on Tokyo Bay. High Angle Shot - Rescuers are walking with a body on a stretcher covered up with a blanket. MS - Parts of the crashed airplane, MS - Part of the window section of the plane. MS - Rescue workers have more bodies on stretchers covered up with blankets. MS - Waterfront warehouse becomes a temporary morgue where relatives come in and identify the remains. CU - A woman looking down at a body. Flowers are placed on top of the make-shift coffin. Medium High Angle - Make-shift casket with flowers placed on top, a man and a woman engaged in conversation. MS - Family members praying for the dearly departed. MS - Search helicopters and boats comb the ocean for bodies. High Angle Shot - Family members standing at the railing looking for bodies and missing members of their families.
"The Rare Breed": Historical Western Opens In Texas
Fort Worth is the scene for the first of four pre-release showings of "The Rare Breed", an historical western, that has white-faced Herefords as unbilled stars. Maureen O'Hara and James Stewart are on hand for the premiere that narrates this milestone in early Texas history. Forth Worth, Texas Movie Theatre with a 'Rare Breed' marquee and throngs queue up to see movie. CU - Movie fans standing in line. CU - Sign, Champion - Polled Hereford Bull - 1966 Southwestern Exposition And Fat Stock Show - Exhibited By Jesse Riffle & Sons. CUS - A cow. CUS - Marquee - "World Premiere - The Rare Breed - James Stewart - On Stage - Maureen O Hara - Tonight Only." MS - People standing in line to gain entrance for a World Premiere and a penned up cow. CUS - High School Marching Band. CU - Maureen O'Hara. CUS - Jimmy Stewart. MS - The theatre and the people standing in line.
Hockey Stars On The Rise - kids
They start 'em young in Canada when it comes to teaching them the national sport, mayhem on ice. Seven hundred kids are taking part in this year's tiny tyke hockey and they take all the falls and bumps in their stride. Canada Little boys walking into a ice skating arena with their hockey sticks. High Angle - Little Boys getting dressed into their hockey attire. High Angle - Two little boys putting on their ice skates. MS - Boy putting on his helmet. MS - A team of little boys go on to the ice all dressed up like hockey players. MS - Boys skating with their hockey sticks and falling down. High Angle - Boys hitting the puck around the ice. MS - The little Goalie falls.
Final Curtain: Sophie Tucker's Death Ends 60-Year Career
She will be remembered, with affection, as the "Last of the Red Hot Mamas". With a voice that was big, brassy and flamboyant, Sophie Tucker occupied a peculiar niche in the hearts of other show-people. Her career covered 60 years and at her Golden Anniversary, all of her contemporaries turned out to pay tribute. Hollywood, California ECU - Sophie Tucker. High Angle Shot - The banquet is packed with her friends and admirers. CUS - Sophie Tucker and Betty Davis. CU - Sophie Tucker is presented with a bust of herself by some of Hollywood's moguls. CU - Sophie Tucker standing at a podium and she starts to sing; "One Of These Days Your Gonne Miss Me Baby". It was her signature song.
August 4, 1994 - Part 1
(09:35:45) Ms. WILLIAMS. I do not challenge that in the recollection of others, but if I am truthful to what I recall, that is not what I was focused on. I do not recall it. The CHAIRMAN. I understand, and I appreciate that, and I want you to be truthful, and I appreciate your saying that. Did Mr. Ickes express an opinion against recusal while you were there? Ms. WILLIAMS. I do not recall what Mr. Ickes said. The CHAIRMAN. Did anybody else who was in the meeting express an opinion against recusal while you were there? Ms. WILLIAMS. I do not recall. The CHAIRMAN. So they may have, or they may not have, you just do not have any memory of it? Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes. I have to tell you that I just, as I do with many meetings, I kind of walk in, size up the situation, take what I think I need from the meeting, and then I am generally on to MY next thought. The CHAIRMAN. Did anybody in the meeting support Mr. Altman's intention to recuse himself.? Is that correct? MS. WILLIAMS. My reaction was to Mr. Altman saying that whatever the decision that the RTC staff would render about waiving the rights of the statute of limitations, he would accept. And my approach was a commonsense approach to this, which is, if you are going to depend on and defer to staff in this matter, which I thought was a perfectly appropriate thing for him to do since they had been working on the case and knew best, then why should you have to recuse yourself. The CHAIRMAN. Well, I understand the reasoning, and I am glad to have that, but the bottom line then is that it was your view that he ought not to recuse himself then. Is that right? Ms. WILLIAMS. With respect to the statute of limitations which was what I was focusing on and his decision in that matter in terms of accepting a recommendation, one way or the other, I thought he should not recuse himself. 277 MS. WILLIAMS. I did not hear anyone support Mr. Altman's intention to recuse himself, but as I said to you, I did hear Mr. Nussbaum say, this is Mr. Altman's decision. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator D'Amato. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR DAMATO Senator D'AMATO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Williams, I am interested in your interest as it related to the statute of limitations that you mentioned and what your concern might have been. You said that they discussed that and you discussed it. Would you just touch on that for a moment? Ms. WILLIAMS. Well, I have to tell you that I did not have a lot of concern going into that meeting, except for the fact, a great deal of my job involves trying to have enough information to be able to respond to future inquiries. I have been a strong and outspoken person when it comes to being prepared, knowing what the landscape was. So when I was in that meeting, my concern was, what information, if any, should I have in the back of my head so if this issue moves to the forefront Senator DAMATO. Recusal issue? Ms. WILLIAMS. No. The statute of limitations. I had no idea that recusal would even be discussed at the meeting. Senator DAMATO. Let me ask you, did you believe that if Roger Altman stayed on, did he give you the sense that he would be this is my word-rubber stamped, that he would take whatever decision flowed from the people at RTC? Was that your view? Ms. WILLIAMS. Well, my view would not be to call taking the recommendation of the RTC staff who had been working on this investigation as rubber stamp. I mean, staff plays a very important and vital part because they monitor, they watch things, they were close to the issue. So I did not think of it as a rubber stamp. I actually thought it was a pretty intelligent decision to accept the recommendation of a staff who had been involved in this. Senator D'AMATO. Did he indicate to you that that is what he would do, that he would take that recommendation? Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes, he indicated to the group that that is what he planned to do. Senator D'AMATO. But there came a point in time when Mrs. Kulka's name was mentioned. I think everybody testified they remember that, and at that point, Mr. Nussbaum expressed some strong reservations about Mrs. Kulka being the decisionmaker. Ms. WILLIAMS. Umm hmm. Senator D'AMATO. Do you recall that when he said, you know, she is tough and he started asking questions, how did she get hired, and will Ellen Kulka be the person? Do you recall that? Ms. WILLIAMS. I wish I had a specific recollection of that, but I just do not. 278 Senator D'AMATO. Let me ask you, there came a time, basically Mr. Altman said he was going to then consider everything that had been raised, right? And you tell me, your impression was that he was going to think about the issue of whether or not to recuse himself.? Ms. WILLIAMS. My impression was that he was thinking about' the issue. Senator D'AMATO. OK. But the next day he called you. Is that correct? Ms. WILLIAMS. It could have been the next day or the day after, Senator D'AMATO. And he said what? He said something about gathering people together, a group of people together because I want to tell them that I have made a decision and I am not going to recuse myself, I am going to stay on?
Honolulu
Admiral Kansom and Govenor Hainback
Honolulu
Crown & Sceptres
Honolulu
SIGNS: Japanese, Chinese, ect.