August 4, 1994 - Part 1
August 4, 1994 - Part 1
(09:35:45) Ms. WILLIAMS. I do not challenge that in the recollection of others, but if I am truthful to what I recall, that is not what I was focused on. I do not recall it. The CHAIRMAN. I understand, and I appreciate that, and I want you to be truthful, and I appreciate your saying that. Did Mr. Ickes express an opinion against recusal while you were there? Ms. WILLIAMS. I do not recall what Mr. Ickes said. The CHAIRMAN. Did anybody else who was in the meeting express an opinion against recusal while you were there? Ms. WILLIAMS. I do not recall. The CHAIRMAN. So they may have, or they may not have, you just do not have any memory of it? Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes. I have to tell you that I just, as I do with many meetings, I kind of walk in, size up the situation, take what I think I need from the meeting, and then I am generally on to MY next thought. The CHAIRMAN. Did anybody in the meeting support Mr. Altman's intention to recuse himself.? Is that correct? MS. WILLIAMS. My reaction was to Mr. Altman saying that whatever the decision that the RTC staff would render about waiving the rights of the statute of limitations, he would accept. And my approach was a commonsense approach to this, which is, if you are going to depend on and defer to staff in this matter, which I thought was a perfectly appropriate thing for him to do since they had been working on the case and knew best, then why should you have to recuse yourself. The CHAIRMAN. Well, I understand the reasoning, and I am glad to have that, but the bottom line then is that it was your view that he ought not to recuse himself then. Is that right? Ms. WILLIAMS. With respect to the statute of limitations which was what I was focusing on and his decision in that matter in terms of accepting a recommendation, one way or the other, I thought he should not recuse himself. 277 MS. WILLIAMS. I did not hear anyone support Mr. Altman's intention to recuse himself, but as I said to you, I did hear Mr. Nussbaum say, this is Mr. Altman's decision. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator D'Amato. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR DAMATO Senator D'AMATO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Williams, I am interested in your interest as it related to the statute of limitations that you mentioned and what your concern might have been. You said that they discussed that and you discussed it. Would you just touch on that for a moment? Ms. WILLIAMS. Well, I have to tell you that I did not have a lot of concern going into that meeting, except for the fact, a great deal of my job involves trying to have enough information to be able to respond to future inquiries. I have been a strong and outspoken person when it comes to being prepared, knowing what the landscape was. So when I was in that meeting, my concern was, what information, if any, should I have in the back of my head so if this issue moves to the forefront Senator DAMATO. Recusal issue? Ms. WILLIAMS. No. The statute of limitations. I had no idea that recusal would even be discussed at the meeting. Senator DAMATO. Let me ask you, did you believe that if Roger Altman stayed on, did he give you the sense that he would be this is my word-rubber stamped, that he would take whatever decision flowed from the people at RTC? Was that your view? Ms. WILLIAMS. Well, my view would not be to call taking the recommendation of the RTC staff who had been working on this investigation as rubber stamp. I mean, staff plays a very important and vital part because they monitor, they watch things, they were close to the issue. So I did not think of it as a rubber stamp. I actually thought it was a pretty intelligent decision to accept the recommendation of a staff who had been involved in this. Senator D'AMATO. Did he indicate to you that that is what he would do, that he would take that recommendation? Ms. WILLIAMS. Yes, he indicated to the group that that is what he planned to do. Senator D'AMATO. But there came a point in time when Mrs. Kulka's name was mentioned. I think everybody testified they remember that, and at that point, Mr. Nussbaum expressed some strong reservations about Mrs. Kulka being the decisionmaker. Ms. WILLIAMS. Umm hmm. Senator D'AMATO. Do you recall that when he said, you know, she is tough and he started asking questions, how did she get hired, and will Ellen Kulka be the person? Do you recall that? Ms. WILLIAMS. I wish I had a specific recollection of that, but I just do not. 278 Senator D'AMATO. Let me ask you, there came a time, basically Mr. Altman said he was going to then consider everything that had been raised, right? And you tell me, your impression was that he was going to think about the issue of whether or not to recuse himself.? Ms. WILLIAMS. My impression was that he was thinking about' the issue. Senator D'AMATO. OK. But the next day he called you. Is that correct? Ms. WILLIAMS. It could have been the next day or the day after, Senator D'AMATO. And he said what? He said something about gathering people together, a group of people together because I want to tell them that I have made a decision and I am not going to recuse myself, I am going to stay on?