Advanced Search
Irrigation - Sprinklers
Sprinklers spray green fields; farm complex in background.Pan of green fields w/ sprinklers going.
American Canal
Water flowing through a shipping canal, Est. shot Pan the river to canal Pan the river to river bank Pan from one canal, over dam, to another canal
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(00:40:30) I feel so badly, Mr. Altman. This is so late and it's been such a grueling experience for you and I don't mean to pile on, but I think there is something that I'd like to get clarification on. Mr. ALTMAN. Today is my son's 9th birthday and I am a little Sorry to say I didn't talk to him today. It's not likely he's still watching, but Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Thank you, Mr. Altman. Mr. ALTMAN. -If he sees the tape I want him to know I love him. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. That's great. Happy birthday to your son and I hope you have some time soon to celebrate with him. Again, I really apologize this is really difficult, but it's obviously an important area. Some of my colleagues have suggested you got yourself in this difficulty to begin with when you waited too long to recuse yourself on these matters. I think, and have all along, that you got on the slippery slope with this in the first place when you took this second job at the RTC, that that was the critical decision when you decided to take that position. Earlier this evening, I had asked you if you sought advice of counsel regarding the relationship and the potential for legal or 537 ethical conflict between the two positions that you held. And your response to me indicated that you had not. Again, this may or may not be a contradiction, but Mr. Foreman who is the Deputy General Counsel and the Ethics Officer over at Treasury related a specific conversation in March 1993, before you took the second job, in which be warned you not to take it, not to take this second job, and I really wanted-would like to try to refresh your recollection and clarify the record in that regard. Do you have any recollection of that conversation? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I honestly don't. Dennis Foreman is a straight- up guy and maybe be did. I don't remember it. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Again, just to refresh your recollection because it's kind of almost ironic, frankly, what it was that he said to you. He said to you-the question was "do you recall any discussion at the time Mr. Altman was appointed about whether it was advisable to have a person who was Deputy Secretary of the Treasury sitting in the position of interim CEO from the standpoint of the legislative distinction or legislative wall between the Oversight Board and the RTC?" He goes on and says, and I'm just going to quote this part. He says, when I heard that it was being considered that he was going to be appointed, I decided I needed to personally say something to him and talk to him about it." A few more words later and then he says, "I said to him, Roger, if you do this. and take an appointment as interim CEO, something terrible is going to happen to you while you are the CEO. It will be something gat you will probably not have anything to do with and you will be blamed for it and it's going to be terrible. I remember exactly what he said to me in response. He said Dennis, we cannot leave the RTC leaderless while we are trying to finish the funding and finish their work." Do you have a recollection of that conversation? Mr. ALTMAN. No, I don't, but I guess Mr. Foreman was right. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. I really don't have any other questions except maybe to suggest bad you might send a thank you note to -Mr. Foreman or congratulate him on his prescience. Mr. ALTMAN. I don't remember that, but that was good insight. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. That's what he said. Roger, something terrible is going to happen to you. Mr. ALTMAN. It did. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Right. It won't have anything to do with you and you will be blamed and it will be terrible, that 's what he said. Id. Mr. ALTMAN. That's what happened. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Again, I want to thank you very much for our patience. I just wanted to clarify your recollection with regar to Mr. Foreman's testimony and to make sure the record was straight on the point. Mr. ALTMAN. Thank you. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. I yield the remainder of my time to Senator Kerry. Senator KERRY. I won't use all of it. I appreciate that enormously I guess our colleague has left now. I regret that enormously he drew a very dramatic conclusion which I don't if you read this document, is fully merited. I think I have 538 asked as many hard questions about the recusal issue as an here, but I find that this particular document, in fact, would score and almost provides evidence to the contrary in the that it is a document, a legal memorandum from Mr. transfer to the First Lady on March 1 written on which is several weeks after the meeting where the recusal was discussed. Mr. Eggleston was not at that meeting. And all of the witnesses who were at the meeting of February 3 have, indeed, agreed at that - meeting, Mr. Altman said be was not going be involved.
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(00:45:30) So while I have sought to try to understand the recusal issue nevertheless, there is no question before this Committee that man personally was going to somehow be involved. So for somebody who is writing a memo who wasn't at that meetin to suggest Senator DODD. The February 2 meeting. You said the 3rd. Senator KERRY. At the February 2 meeting or the February 3 meeting with Mr. Ickes, for someone to write this on February 28 saying now that Mr. Altman has recused himself, in fact, demonstrates he was not privy to any of that discussion on the 3rd or the 2nd and didn't know what Mr. Altman's true relationship to this decisionmaking was. So I would simply respectfully submit that this is, if you read the whole memo, a fairly straightforward lawyering memo, a status-oriented memo that kind of lays out where things are going and it almost shows a fairly significant lack of day-to-day knowledge of what is happening and the data significant for the quantity of lack of information. Senator DODD. If my colleague would yield. Just a step further on 'that point, I mean, it said and I'm sorry the Senator of New Mexico has left as well, with sort of the pause for drama, that Mrs. Clinton got a copy of this memo from Mr. Ickes, who is what, the Deputy Chief of Staff at the White House, as if somehow that is a major revelation and someone ought to be getting a copy of a legal memo regarding the status. Senator KERRY. I might just add, it involves the RTC/Rose Law Firm issues, the Rose Law Firm of which Mrs. Clinton was a partner. I think- I'm not trying--I think I've been fair in these proceedings, trying to find the facts. It strikes me that this is not what it has purported to be and it's important for us not to leave so now Mr. Eggleston I think is coming in. Am I correct? So we'll have ample opportunity to explore this with him but on the face of it, I think we should not draw a conclusion at this point in time. I think it's unfair. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bennett. Senator DAMATO. Will the Senator yield for a moment? Senator BENNETT. Yes, I'd like to yield a minute to Senator D'Amato. Senator DAMATO. Mr. Chairman, I'm going to ask that the entire memo be placed in the record. The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, so ordered. Senator D'AMATO. Mr. Chairman, I just make note that Mr. Eggleston was at one of those meetings, the February 3 meeting, where Mr. Ickes came in. That's number one, so he had a little understanding and he is from the Office of White House Counsel. 539 Second, Mr. Ickes is the Deputy Chief of Staff, and I think-and he was at both of those meetings, and so I don't think we should be drawing inferences that somehow they were not in a position to understand all of the nuances With Mr. Ickes being at both of the meetings, Mr. Eggleston being at one of them. I thought I'd like to put that on the record. Senator KERRY. I think that's fair. All I'm suggesting, Senator, is I think it's important for him to explain it and put it in a context before we have a dramatic conclusion. Senator DAMATO. I thank my colleague. Senator BENNFrr. I'll yield a minute to Senator Gramm. Senator GRAMM. I'd like to add just two more points. First of all, this memo, except for the introductory paragraph, was redacted, so we didn't get it initially. We bad to go back and ask for it. So that suggests that somebody somewhere may have not wanted us to have it. Second, there is a cover memo, which neither you nor Senator DAmato referred to. This cover letter is the memo to the First Lad~ from Harold Ickes, which then encloses the memo from Mr. Egg leston. Mr. Ickes was at every meeting, and if he is forwarding this memo on to the First Lady to read, it seems to me that is clear and convincing evidence to, at least, his belief in the veracity of it. That's all I wanted to point out. Senator KERRY. Let me just say to my friend that if the issue of his being there was of such critical importance and on the 3rd, be got out-be said he was going to stay and what, the 25th, he gets out, there would have been some knowledge about who the other players were. Now, I'm not trying to exonerate. All I'm saying is you can't draw that conclusion. But second, don't make insinuations about the redactions because this entire memo is outside of the scope of this hearing. It does not involve contacts, and it has only been made available to us by virtue of the White House's willingness to clarify this, to unredact and make it available. But into the scope of this hearing, we have no right to this and it's by their judgment that they want this open that we have it.
Nice Kids & MayPole Dance
MS of little boys and girls in flowers and pretty clothes. Girls some of them wearing bonnets and others flowers in their hair outside on a grassy field. 02:08:01 LS Maypole dance in a landscape that is coastal US- palm trees in the background. Girls dressed in pastels - light blues and creams - stand in a circle around the pole with long banners which are tied to the top of the pole. They walk in and out holding the long banners and start going around the pole in different formations. 02:00:32 Groups of boys seated in circles on the ground. In the center pairs of boys and girls prance about. 02:08:43 Another angle of children activity END 02:08:54 ds in flowers and nice clothes. LS women dancing the maypole dance (looks like Southeast Asia, but most of the children are Caucasian).
Cafe Society Dance
MS of man and woman in formal wear. The man holds the woman by the waist and one hand. They circle around the floor dancing and talking. 02:09:08 MS Old timers outdoors cluster about in couples dancing. Couple in center go round and round speedier than the rest. END 02:09:26
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(00:50:36) Senator GRAMM. I just thought that you needed two points of information. Number one, Mr. Ickes, who was at every meeting, forwards this document to the First Lady, so clearly he believed in its veracity. Second, we didn't Senator KERRY. I understand. We're going to have ample--listen, I think, Senator, I've been as interested in anybody in pursuing that line of questioning and we're going to have a lot of chance to get at it. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bennett. Senator BENNFTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a few loose ends, Mr. Altman, and I promise that they ,have nothing to do with anything we've talked about before as the Mair requested. Let me review your answer to a question from Senator Bond at the February bearing. It's on page 40 of the hearings. Trust me to read it accurately. It says: 540 Senator BOND. Mr. Altman are there special measures taken in the resolution Of a failed thrift when you find it to be affiliated with a high Profile individual, some- one in Government, for example? Mr. ALTMAN. The procedure, Senator, which the RTC follows are intended to be identical in each case, and they certainly have been identical in the case discussed this morning. Is that still your opinion? Mr. ALTMAN. Is the question about the safeguarding of documents? Senator BENNETT. No. The question is "Are there special meas- ures taken in the resolution of the failed thrift when you find it to be affiliated with a high profile individual, someone in Govern. ment, for example?" Your answer , then, was-, 'The procedure, Senator, which the RTC follows are intended to be identical in each case, and they certainly have been identical in the case discussed, this morning. Do you stand by that answer? Mr. ALTMAN. I do. Senator BENNETT. Let me read to you from Ms. Hanson's deposition: "I spoke to Mr. Curtis and I was told that although typically it is customary for criminal referrals to be sent directly from the regional office to the Department of Justice, if the referral involves people of prominence or relates to issues of national significance, then it would be customary for the referral to go to Washington in the first instance." Now, you were the Chief Executive Officer of the RTC. Were you aware of this special procedure? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe so, Senator. Senator BENNETT. New York Times, July 26, alleges that and an aide "tried to set up a system so they can be informed in advance of sensitive matters at the agency." Further, Mr. Gerth of the Times quotes Mr. Katsanos as saying, "Mr. Altman was interested in being consulted on major or politically sensitive matters." Did you or one of your aides try to set up an early warning system for political figures? Mr. ALTMAN. I'm going to take a moment to answer that question, Senator, because I'm glad you asked it. I've taken a lot of heat over the past week or so, on this matter. It's been misreported from the beginning. It's still being misreported. I never asked to be kept abreast of any investigation or any case, despite what the press has said. All I asked was that, from the point of view of the press, I be alerted to any decision just before it's released which could have major press potential or major leak potential. Just before it's released. Don't involve me in the decision, I don't want to get involved in the investigation, but before you release it, a day before or something, please let me know because I may start getting inquiries about it. That's all that I asked. I think that's a very reasonable thing to have done and all this criticism of the past week or 8 days is based on an erroneous presumption. Senator BENNETT. So the quotation attributed to Mr. Katsanos is either inaccurate or if it's an accurate quotation, Mr. Katsanos is inaccurate? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't quite know what be meant. I'm just telling you--I just tried to tell you what the reality was and if he meant that I asked to be kept abreast of any investigation or any inner workings of a case, he he's got it wrong. 541 Senator BENNETT. Does that include-and this is outside the scope of this resolution so you could decline to answer it if you'd like, but to give you the opportunity, since you said you were pleased that I raised it, would that include the case involving Congressman Jefferson? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe I ever asked to be briefed on where the case stood involving Congressman Jefferson. No, I don't. That's my best recollection.
World's Fastest Plane
The first public flight of the YK-12 at Edwards Air Force Base, California. This is the jet interceptor, the existence of which was revealed by President Johnson last February. A revelation meant to answer critics who said the United States was falling behind in manned jet air fighters. The new airplane carries a deadly air-to air missile and is said to be the highest flying and fastest jet known to exist. It's top speed is said to be 2,500 miles per hour. It can reach an altitude of one-hundred-thousand feet. (This aircraft appears to be a prototype for the SR-71 "Blackbird" reconnaissance plane.) Over the head shot of the YK-12 sitting on the tarmac. Below the wing on the Interceptor sits a missile. Two of the pilots dressed up and it appears to be Lieutenant Robert Stevens and his co-pilot. Two pilots climbing up the steps and climb into the Interceptor. Plane is taxing on the runway. A blast of fire comes out of the back and the plane starts to climb becoming air born. Air to Air - The YK-12 Interceptor in flight looking extremely formidable in flight as well as on the ground. The YK-12 landing and the back shoots open,
The Island Kauai
Hole in the mountain
Kauai, Hawaii
More Waimea Canyon
Kauai, Hawaii
Waimea Canyon
Kauai, Hawaii
Kalalau Lookout
Kauai, Hawaii
Fireworks Cliff
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(00:55:34) Senator BENNETT. Now, in your opening statement, you say on page 11 "around that same time, I literally ran into Mr. Nussbaum in a corridor of the White House. He told me the Administration would soon be submitting its' nominee for permanent RTC head." Mr. ALTMAN. I'm sorry, Senator. Senator BENNETT, From your opening statement, "around that same time, I literally ran into Mr. Nussbaum in a corridor of the White House. He told me the Administration would soon be submitting its' nominee for permanent RTC head." Is that still your recollection? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator BENNETT. You're aware that Mr. Nussbaum has testified that you told him, quoting from Mr. Nussbaum's testimony, "I believe that Mr. Altman told me in late February, in another brief conversation, that a Washington lawyer, Larry Simons, was likely to be nominated to bead the RTC." Mr. ALTMAN. I don't understand that at all, because Mr. Nussbaum had no need to learn that from me. That was already under discussion at great length at the White House. He would have known that without my telling him. Senator BENNETT. Who conducted the Executive search, the White House or the RTC? Mr. ALTMAN. Well, the Treasury and the White House generally work together in terms of the list of candidates and narrowing it down and ultimately selecting Mr. Simons, subject, of course, to background work and vetting and subject to the views of several Senators, Senator D'Amato, Senator Riegle, Senator Dodd, and others whom we thought we should check with. But when I ran into Mr. Nussbaum a day or two before my February 22 testimony, he undoubtedly knew that sometime earlier, Borne considerable time earlier. Senator BENNETT, That confuses me even more. Mr. ALTMAN. I think when he's here-he is coming here, isn't be? Senator BENNETT. Yes. Mr. ALTMAN. I think when he's here--I can't swear to it-he'll clear that up because be didn't find that out the day or two before testimony when we ran into each other. He found that out much earlier, or I think be did. Senator BENNETT. Well, we'll just have to Mr. ALTMAN. Also, Senator, it wasn't my responsibility or, for matter, the Treasury's responsibility to send the nomination Senator BENNETT. All right. We'll just have to straighten that because there's a discrepancy. Your recollection is different on face of the testimony from his recollection. 542 If I could go back just quickly to my earlier questions about being informed about cases, give you one more opportunity to comment on that, would you please distinguish between being advised about ongoing, investigations and being informed about a case being filed Would the system that you've been criticized for in the press' apply to the first instance of ongoing investigations? I think you've indicated that it would apply only to an ongoing ongoing investigation and only at the time it was completed and only so that you could re-spond to the press. What about a case being filed? Mr. ALTMAN. First of all, Senator, I never asked to be kept abreast of any investigation. In other words, where does it stand how does it look? I never asked to be kept abreast of any investiga- tion. I never asked to be kept abreast of an 'ease. What does it look like, what's the outlook, what's the facts? I never asked to be kept abreast of any case. All I asked was that before the RTC released to the press infor- mation that would have a significant potential impact from the press point of view, I'd be alerted to it. Now, I think that's a very reasonable thing to have said an d while I haven't actually checked, I'd be surprised if other agencies didn't have a similar policy. Just simply let me know before you release it, not before you decided it---before you release it so that if I start to get inquiries, I won't be caught short. That's all. Senator BENNETT. As you've described it, I think that is very reasonable. It's not as these other people have described it, and I suppose you'll have a conversation with Mr. Katsanos about that. Mr. ALTMAN. No, I haven't had a conversation with anyone at the RTC. Senator BENNETT. I suppose you will have a conversation with him. Mr. ALTMAN. No, I won't. No. Senator BENNETT. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. ALTMAN. I'm never going to have a conversation with anybody at the RTC again. The CHAIRMAN. I want to just take a moment to review what the outstanding requests are at this time. We've now heard from Senator Bennett and Senator Domenici. Help me if there are any others of you who want to take time. Senator DAmato, you have an interest. Senator Gramm? Anybody on this side? Senator Dodd? Senator DODD. I don't think it's my time. Go ahead. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dodd will defer to either of you.
Kauai, Hawaii
Na Pali Coast--end of the road
Kauai Island
Wailna River
Kauai Island
Bird of Paradise
Kauai Island
S.S. Luckenbach on reef
Kauai Island
Mt Waialeale
Kauai Island
Dry Cave & rain
Kauai Island
Kauai Fish Pond ***
Kauai Islands
River scenes ***near Lihue
Kauai Island
Fish Pond ***
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(01:00:47) Senator D'AMATO. OK. Mr. Altman, I want to take you back to February 24. I'm having trouble understanding some things, but maybe not. I'll tell you why. When you were preparing for this hearing, recognizing that the issue of recusal would be brought up, and I talked to you about it the night before, can you tell us why you didn't mention that recusal on the 24th when it was written down in your briefing book? Did Ms. Hanson tell you not to mention the Feb ruary. 2 discussions about recusal? Mr. First of all, Senator, I wasn't asked about recusalYou told me the night before you were going to ask me about it and I don't believe you did. Second, the question I answered from Senator Gramm and maybe I didn't I do the best job answering it but 543 that's what--I tried to do my best, I took to mean communication relating to the RTC investigation of Madison. Now, I've said many times, and I'll say it again, don't think that recusal had any bearin at all on the RTC investigation of Madison. genator DAMATO. You did spend that February 2 meeting, probably the most contentious part of it or the only contentious part, centered around recusal; is that true? Mr. ALTMAN. I think the facts demonstrate that that discussion bad no impact, could not have had any impact. Senator DAMATO. I'm not suggesting that. Mr. ALTMAN. But we could have had a contentious discussion About anything We could have had a contentious discussion about the weather. Senator DAMATO. OK, Mr. Altman. Let me move on. On March 1, Mr. Podesta calls you and he discusses with you our testimony. He suggests to you that it's not accurate and then he specifically goes into the area. He says, "I think that we were concerned, we thought that, whether or not it fit within the frame of his characterization at the meeting as being procedural, there would be a reaction to a further disclosure at the subject of recusal came up, and that it may be best to supplement the record." Now, you then went on. I mean, is that a fair---this is Mr. Podesta's deposition. Lees continue. On March 2, and you've indicated in an effort to correct the record, after Mr. Podesta called you, you write a letter and that letter fails to mention the February 2 recusal discussion. Now did Ms. Hanson advise you not to include that? Mr. ALTMAN. No, Senator, she didn't. If I can Senator D'AMATO. How is it that in light of Mr. Podesta specifically calling this to your attention and saying to you that within the frame of this, of the meeting, that there would be a reaction to further disclosure and he really was incisive, you might say, because when we find out thereafter that there was this pressure and I think Mr. Kerry'. my colleague from Massachusetts, said it, I think here you are in the situation where you don't want to be, but you are and we have to ask why are people putting you in this position? And then we have to say to ourselves well, you made it clear you wanted to recuse yourself You made it clear to maybe half a dozen people. To your former assistant who writes a book and says that this is torturous, it's incredible and then others, Jean Hanson the Treasury General Counsel-Ms.-the counsel there, what's her name? Kulka, Kulka. I mean, they all tell you recuse Yourself. You go over there, Bernie Nussbaum-here, let me tell you, you're a tough New Yorker, you negotiate 24, 48 hours, you make deals. You didn't get here and become a great investment banker because you didn't have the stamina, intellect, and the capacity to stand up. He basically says, hey wait a minute, we don't want to leave this with Kulka. He says that, it's undisputed. He's worried about her.