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August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(01:25:57) Mr. ALTMAN. Well, Senator, honestly speaking, I can't remember precisely what was in my mind, but as I read it now, I think Senator D'Amato's question toils down to why did you have the meeting, and the reason I had the meeting as underscored by my conversation with Mr. McLarty was to talk about these procedures. Now, I guess it could be looked at another way too, but I think that's a fairly reasonable way to look at it, what I just said. 550 The CHAIRMAN. I guess part of it and several people have touched on it, Senator Kerry has touched on it, and others have touched on it, and that is the recusal issue became a very sensitive issue. I mean it was an awkward issue. There was strong opinion expressed about it. I still think Mr. Steiner's diaries are relevant documents in the sense that he reflects in real time a lot Of controversy surrounding this, granted some hyperbole is in the words that he chose and so forth, but he obviously was reflecting, because he wasn't there as you've indicated, the only person that I know of that he talked to about it was you. So whatever flavor you gave to him from that meeting bad to be central to what be was relating to his diary. At least Mr. ALTMAN. I didn't have a chance to see all of Mr. Steiner's tes- timony this morning, so you please correct me, but of course he could have bad conversations with the White House. He has those all the time. And he could have had conversations with Jean Han. son too. The CHAIRMAN. Well, but even if so, let's grant that. If he'd gotten additional comments from others then that would be in a sense the recollections of other people to the fact that this was a heated discussion and that there was a lot of tension associated with it. I think it is fair to conclude, in looking at these questions fully recognizing the awkwardness and the sensitivity of the recusal issue, in deciding to do it and deciding not to do it and then later finally deciding officially to do it, that it ought to have been mentioned here. I think you see that now yourself, don't you. Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, I agree with that, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. It should have been mentioned. I think it's fair to say that that should have been encompassed within the response to the kinds of questions you were being asked. There were a series of questions that came and because it was a major issue, (01:28:32)(tape #10075 ends)
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(01:05:37) And so I'm not suggesting that you are going to think of doing anything other than what you've testified. You ad your own pur pose your own mind, but you changed your mind. You said all right, I'll sleep on it, you come back and you have the next day and again the meeting on the 3rd, recusal, precipitated by that brow- 544 beating-and that's my characterization now, but if you read eve body else's that probably isn't inaccurate-one by Bernie Nuss- baum who is the President's attorney. Now we go on. On March 3 you write another letter and again you fail to mention the recusal of February 2. You bring up the meeting, the meeting that took place on the 3rd, and didn't you mention it at that time? Is that unreasonable to You see, look, you are correcting the record, Podesta tells you the meeting on the 2nd, you didn't correct the record. Is it because you don't want to say to the Committee at that time, look, I did go in there to, and I was going to, recuse myself and this took place? I mean that's a reasonable explanation. I can understand it. 1, an: 7, Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I think the record will show or does show that when Mr. Podesta called me and asked me about that, I said that I thought my answer was responsive to the question. Now; that shows, for whatever it's worth, my state of mind. I thought my answer was responsive to the question and I believe that he'll con- firm that I said that, On the first matter, the fall meetings, I was taken aback and before the end of the day I sent the Committee a letter indicating I just learned about it. Now I just thought that my answer was responsive. Senaotr D'AMATO. Well, it's not until March 21, and that's nearly a month later, that you correct your testimony once again and you finally allude to that February 2 discussion of recusal. I'd have to suggest to you when I begin to read all the other things, I come to the conclusion, given your discussion that you outlined in your diary, you don't want to discuss what happened. The diary where Maggie Williams tells you that the White House is "paralyzed" by Whitewater, Mrs. Clinton in particular. And I have to come to a conclusion, reasonable people might even disagree, that that's why Maggie Williams is at all of these meetings. What is Mrs. Clinton's Chief of Staff doing at these meetings to briefed, the one on February 2, the one on February 3, conversations that she has with you on January 11 that you record in your diary? Where did she get the impression that Ms. Reno was attempting to limit the scope of the-I mean, this is an impression that she conveyed to you. Whether or not it was accurate or not, she actually told you this. You recorded that, I mean you recorded this faithfully as you remembered it at the time; is that true? Mr. ALTMAN. As you see in the notes I drew that inference. You'll have the opportunity to ask a whole variety of people as to whether I drew the correct inference. Mr. Cutler believes that I didn't. In other words Senator DAMATO. Let me give you Mr. ALTMAN. In other words, it didn't happen. Senator D'AMATO. Let me give you something that you quoted in that diary. You said Maggie Williams indicated that "Hillary Clinton doesn't want the counsel poking into 20 years of public life 'in Arkansas." And that's quoted. And here's-you have Lloyd Bentsen and he goes over and he says, and you quote, be's going to go over to see George on Whitewater to "recommend lancing the boil." 19 Of getting this out, getting you recused. 545 Mr. ALTMAN. No, Senator, I'm sorry. That's not what I meant in that. Senator DAMATO. What did you mean by that? Mr. ALTMAN. Secretary Bentsen, who's got the best judgment of anybody I've ever met, thought that the White House should get on with it, get the Independent Counsel in place and move forward that way. That's what he meant by "lance the boil" or, at least, as I remember it. Nothing to do with recusal.
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(01:10:27) Senator D'AMATO. Let me ask you this. Is it still your testimony now after we've gone through this that the purpose of the February 2 meeting did not include addressing the issue of recusal? Mr. ALTMAN. When I called Mr. McLarty and told him what the purpose of the meeting was, I said it's to discuss the procedure alternatives facing the RTC. That was the day before the meeting. Senator DAMATO. OK Let me give you one other. The CHAIRMAN. Would you just yield at that point for a moment? Senator DAMATO. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. We've covered that a lot of times but wouldn't it be fair to say after the fact, in that meeting recusal was discussed? Mr. ALTMAN. Absolutely, Senator. I'm just saying that I discussed that extemporaneously. The CHAIRMAN. It wasn't your plan to do so. Mr. ALTMAN. No, it wasn't. The CHAIRMAN. But it came up in the meeting and it was a subject of the meeting as the meeting actually happened. Senator GRAMM. It was in his notes. Senator DAMATO. Let him finish, Mr. ALTMAN. As I say, it wasn't the purpose of the meeting, I did bring it up, it did get discussed as you know and along the lines we I 've talked about and so that happened. Senator DAMATO. That's the problem I have. You told people you were going over there to discuss the issue of recusal, Josh Steiner had that impression. Let me tell you what Ben Nye says and Josh Steiner is almost beside himself in his notes when you read them and he said he let them talk you out of it. You were going over there to say that. You told- you discussed the matter with Kulka, ,You discussed the matter with Jean Hanson, you discussed the matter with the Secretary, and then Ben Nye says-he's your as- Question: To your recollection did anyone indicate that the issue of recusal would also be addressed when Mr. Altman contacted the White House. Answer: I believe that it was planned to be discussed. Yet now, Mr. Altman, you've responded to the Committee Chairman with an answer that is contradicted by just about-if you look it and really look at all the people's recollections, that it was certainly intended to go over there to discuss that subject. Are you really saying you didn't intend to discuss the issue of recusal? Honestly to this Committee at this--at 1:15 a.m., after ev- erything has come out, you contend now that when you went over you didn't have on your mind and a purpose and a major se to discuss the issue of recusal and I say major. Senator KERRY. Is this the 2nd or the 3rd? Senator D'AMATO. This is the 2nd, February 2. This is when Bernie up. 546 Mr. ALTMAN. All I'm trying to say, Senator, and I think the record is clear on this, when I called Mr. McLarty and said, is why I'd like to come meet, I didn't bring up recusal. When made that phone call which I think was the day before that wasn't %plan. Senator DAMATO. I didn't ask you what you said to Mr. Me What you told other people and when you set out to go over to meeting, did you intend to bring up the issue of recusal? Mr. ALTMAN. It's my best recollection that I brought it up ex poraneousl,y. I think in my deposition it says that I blurted it That's my best recollection. Senator DAMATO. You blurted it out? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, I think that's what I said in deposition. Senator DAMATO. These people are all waiting to hear what are saying about that. You really think that they didn't know the statute of limitations was going to end on February 28? And I know the red light is on. If you want me to stop, we'll just come back to it later. Mr. ALTMAN. I do want to say I don't believe, to address myself specifically to Senator Riegle I don't believe that an of the partici- pants in that meeting when I walked in the room thought or knew that recusal was going to be discussed. Senator DAMATO. Let me just put this-here is your talking points prepared for that meeting. Senator GRAMM. For him. Senator DAMATO. Prepared for you, you have asked for these' talking points and it says I've decided that I-look how definite it is. "I have decided that I will recuse myself from the decisionmaking process as interim CEO of the RTC because of my relationship with the President and Mrs. Clinton." I mean you are going to say that. You told this to Ms. Hanson. You told is to Nye. You told this to Steiner. You were going to go over there and do it. Senator KERRY. But as the Senator knows, there were separate talking points that came out of that meeting. Senator GRAMM. This is what he took in. Senator DODD. Can I just on the point The CHAIRMAN. Senator Sarbanes has asked to be recognized and your time is up. Senator D'AMATO. You all are more than generous but if I could conclude in 15 seconds. This is the aspect that troubles me. Even at this time and I conclude by that given these facts, given this 'information, I say I can only come to the conclusion that you absolutely intended to go to that meeting to discuss the issue of recusal and then when asked to correct the record, refused to do it and it was only almost a month later before you finally brought that into play. And I thank my colleagues for being as patient as they have. Mr. ALTMAN. I would like a moment if I could to respond to that The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go ahead.
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