August 4, 1994 - Part 9
August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(19:20:25) But it doesn't strike me this is someone who was to be pressured. He obviously was having some real questions about this himself, and he said in testimony he wished he had just made it in the first place, so obviously he's uncertain during all of this. That is obviously clear. But the question of whether or not that uncertainty was arrived at as a result of pressure or his own doubts about the decision, I think it's pretty clear. In my view, it was because of his own doubts about it rather than someone exercising pressure. That's just my opinion. Let me move very quickly to the second issue, which I think is extremely important. Mr. Ickes, this has to do with your testimony, and the meeting on February 2nd. I want to return to your testimony, I may. First, as I understand it, you took notes at that meeting, and I think you included them with your opening statement; is that not correct? Mr. ICKES. I did, Senator Dodd. Senator DODD. Do these notes reflect what was being said at that meeting by Mr. Altman? Mr. ICKES. Well, the notes are very summary. It was a meet in my recollection of some 45 minutes or so so these notes 419 some aspects of that meeting, and some of those-most of those notes, to my recollection, reflect what was being said in some respects by Mr. Altman. Senator DODD. These notes reflect, at least to the extent they reflect what was said at that meeting, not necessarily everything that was said at that meeting, but they're an accurate reflection in your mind regarding the items of which you took notes about. Mr. ICKES. Yes. Senator DODD. Now, you gave a deposition to this Committee, did you not? Mr. ICKES. I did, sir. Senator DODD. Now, I'm going to read some of this deposition, if I may. I'll start on page 121 around line 11. This is Mr. Codinha, our Chief Counsel who asked "did Mr. Altman discuss the steps that the RTC was taking to got the information that they would need in order to make a determination on the statute of limitations?" Mr. Bennett-now, Mr. Bennett is your attorney. Mr. ICKES. He is. Senator DODD. Is that Mr. Robert Bennett? Mr. ICKES. Yes, sir. Senator DODD. "Mr. BENNETT: I'm going to ask, in fairness to the witness, if what your objective is to find out what happened, if you could show him his notes which were taken in real time. I mean, if you want an accurate rather than a guessing years later. "Mr. CODINHA. Years later? "Mr. BENNETT. Not years later. Months and months. The point is the most accurate record is his contemporaneous notes, so we don't get into a guessing game. I'd ask you to show him his notes. "By Mr. Codinha. "Question: Mr. Ickes, as best you recall, what was said about the subject? "Mr. BENNETT. Go ahead. Guess. Do your best." Is that the advice of your Counsel, to guess? Mr. ICKES. I think that that is an accurate transcription of Mr. Bennett's Senator DODD. Let me make a point here because depositions are different than trials, although someone might conclude we are in a trial setting. But in depositions it's not necessary nor is it required-in fact, it's allowed in many cases for witnesses to bring notes and extraneous material to refresh their memories in a deposition. Normally, in the conduct of a trial or a hearing, people do bring notes and are allowed to refer to those notes in order to refresh their memory. So what Mr. Codinha did in this particular case is entirely proper in the conduct of depositions, and I want that to be very, very clear here. But the fact of the matter is you were not allowed to look at your notes in responding to the questions. Is that true? Mr. ICKES. That is correct, Senator. Senator DODD. And your Counsel said, then, to guess in your answers. That was his advice. Mr. ICKES. He said "go ahead, guess. Do your best." Senator DODD. I'd like you to take a look at your notes, if you can. After you were asked to look at your notes-well, you've done 420 that. Let me go back to this point that Senator Kerry was raising earlier about the issue of whether or not you heard Mr. Altman state that it would be--I'm paraphrasing here--impossible or almost impossible to bring the claims prior to February 28 because they wouldn't be ready. Mr. ICKES. Senator, as I think I made-I hope I made clear in my opening statement, there's a distinction between deciding whether or not an agency should go ahead and litigate a full blown case, and there's obviously a number of considerations that go into that. Chief among them, whether there's a reasonable possibility of winning, the cost involved, et cetera, as opposed to whether there's sufficient evidence to file a claim.