August 4, 1994 - Part 9
August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(18:45:22) senator DAMATO. Again, we are attempting to divide the time equally. That doesn't mean that one side doesn't give to, in this morning, in an effort of comedy, that's why I yielded the time. We have Members here who have been waiting and I hoped that we would do that and then if Members want to yield their time, that's a different matter. Senator SARBANES. I want to make it clear to my colleague, the questions I just asked were on my first round because I was not able to be here to take the first round because I was debating an amendment on the floor of the Senate. So if there is some misunderstanding that I was asking a second round of questions, that's not the case. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN, It's perfectly all right. I was afraid, however, that the Chairman had forgotten that I had not had a first round. The CHAIRMAN. No, no. You are never out of my mind, Senator Moseley-Braun. Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Oh, thank you very much, Mr. ChairMan. The CHAIRMAN, I am very sensitive to the fact that you have not "Yet had an opportunity. Senator DODD. Nor have I, Mr. Chairman. 408 The CHAIRMAN. Nor has Senator Dodd, There are two on our side who have not had an opportunity in this round but we have been proceeding on the rotation basis and as soon as Mr. Gramm finishes, then I will call on one or the other of you and then we'll continue until everybody has had a chance. Senator GRAMM. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Mr. Ickes, let me go back to you. I'm reading from a sworn depo- sition from Ms. Hanson. She's talking about a meeting in Maggie Williams' office on February 3rd. In order to set the context, the day before Mr. Altman had come to a meeting at the White House, and all the evidence, through sworn depositions, is that he was going to announce his decision to take himself out of the Madison investigation. He didn't do it. He comes back the next day, February 3rd. This is the meeting where he announces that he is going to stay on the Madison case. Ms. Hanson got there late, but she says the following that relates to you: She says "what I remember of it is Mr. Ickes asked me who else knew that I had recommended to Mr. Altman that he recuse himself and I gave him three names, Michael Levy, Ben Nye, and I don't recall the third. He said that's good because if it gets out it will look bad." She said this under oath. Did you tell her that? Mr. ICKES. Senator Gramm, as I've testified a few moments earlier, I have absolutely no recollection of saying that to Ms. Hanson. My only recollection is that I had a hello, good to see you, goodbye encounter with her in Ms. Williams' office. As I recall, it was sometime around noon or shortly thereafter. Senator GRAMM. Can you think of any reason why you might have said that to her and might not remember it? Mr. ICKES. I don't recall saying it, Senator Gramm. I simply do not recall saying anything of that nature to her. Senator GRAMM. Let me go back, Mr. Lindsey, to a point that I was trying to develop with you. Unfortunately, the time ran out. Let me see if I understand, let me try to summarize. On September 29th, a notification came from Ms. Hanson who, she says under oath, was ordered by Mr. Altman to inform the White House that 9 criminal referrals were on their way to Washington and that the President and the First Lady were named in those referrals. You get that information indirectly from the person she calls. You then talk to the gentleman, the President 's friend, Jim Lyons, who did the investigation during the campaign to tell us that there was no problem with Whitewater. He tells you that somebody in the media is nosing around on this whole question of the criminal referrals, and you tell the President. You tell the President, as I heard, since you've heard this from Jim Lyons, The final point that I'd established was that you believed that the notification by the RTC and the Treasury Department about the criminal referrals was proper, ethical, legal. That's where I think we were when we ended. Here is my question: Is it your contention that you never told the President, and that no one, to your knowledge, ever told the President, that you had received an official notification from the Treasury, RTC, about the criminal referrals? Was what the President was told simply about what Jim Lyons had said? 409 Mr. LINDSEY. Well, I believe what I probably indicated to him was that I had spoken with Jim Lyons, that there were press inquiries about criminal referrals, that it was my understanding that there were criminal referrals that had to do with Madison and that I understood that the Clintons were mentioned in those