August 4, 1994 - Part 9
August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(18:35:23) Senator SARBANES. Did you wonder why a meeting had been called for Altman to spend-I don't know-I don't know what your estimate of the length of time is but not very much time to tell you he was not going to recuse himself? Mr. ICKES. Senator, I think-I've watched very little of these hearings I've been very busy with the President's Health Care initiative and so I've watched very little of these hearings and have 405 not had the opportunity to read much, I think there is a variance between some of our testimony as to when that meeting took place. My best recollection-I could be wrong, but my best recollection is that that so- called meeting took place very late in the afternoon, just prior to a 6:00 Health Care meeting that I typically held at least three or four times a week. And so my recollection is that Mr. Altman informed me and Ms. Williams just prior to beginning of what I call the 6:00 Health Care meeting. It was held in her office on a regular basis. Senator SARBANES. Now, was Ms. Hanson at that meeting? Mr. ICKES. In the meeting that I've just described, Ms. Hanson was not there. I do not recall her being present. Senator SARBANES. Do you recall her being present immediately after that meeting? Mr. ICKES. I don't-if I'm correct on the time, Senator, Mr. Altman was a participant in the 6:00 meeting and so it would not have been a surprise to me to see him there. Ms. Williams was a participant. I was a participant. I do recall seeing Ms. Hanson in or about Ms. Williams' office, and my best recollection is that it was around noon or shortly after noon and I think it was on that same day, Senator SARBANES. That you saw Ms. Hanson? Mr. ICKES. Yes. Senator SARBANES. What she says is "I went to the White House and found Ms. Williams' office and when I arrived in her office, Mr. Altman was gone. I was told that Mr. Altman had just left. Mr. Ickes was there. Mr. Eggleston was there. Ms. Williams was there. There was some conversation." Then I want to go on and read her deposition, too. "What I remember of it is Mr. Ickes asked me who else knew that I had recommended to Mr. Altman that he recuse himself and I gave him three names, Michael Levy, Ben Nye and I don't recall the third. He said that's good because if it gets out it will look bad. I said it's what I would have done if I had been in his position and Mr. Ickes said it would but it would be better if it didn't get out." Now, what did you mean by all of that? Mr. ICKES. Senator, I don't think I said that and I simply have absolutely no recollection of saying that. My recollection of my encounter with Ms. Hanson that day was that I was in Maggie Williams' office. I often was and I ran into Ms. Hanson who, my understanding is, that she'd come over to see Ms. Williams and my only recollection of that encounter, which was again extraordinarily short, was hello, nice to see you and good-bye. I was on my way downstairs or somewhere else, That's all I recall of that meeting. I do not recall saying to her what she apparently has said in either her deposition or testimony. Senator SARBANES. Had you dealt with Ms. Hanson before? Mr. ICKES. The only time I had dealt with her before was at the meeting on February 2nd. I did not know what she looked like when she came into the meeting, and it was the first time I'd met her. The only other time that I recall seeing her personally, that is face to face as opposed to television or something like that, is the following day. 406 Senator SARBANES. So it's your testimony here that you don't recall any such conversation of the sort that Ms. Hanson testified to in the course of her deposition? Mr. ICKES. Absolutely no recollection whatsoever, Senator. Senator BENNETT. Will the Senator yield for a clarification at least from my notes? Senator SARBANES. Yes, of course. Senator BENNETT. From my notes, from this morning's conversation with Ms. Williams, Maggie Williams, the meeting consisted of Mr. Ickes, Mr. Altman, herself and someone from the General Counsel's Office. She couldn't remember who. And that corresponds with you saying Mr. Eggleston was there but she said Mr. Altman was not on his way to a 6:00 Health Care meeting, but had to leave to go to the Hill. So it would seem to me from her testimony that Mr. Altman made his statement about the recusal prior to Ms. Hanson's arrival at this meeting and that maybe you are confused as to the timing circumstance because