August 4, 1994 - Part 9
August 4, 1994 - Part 9
(18:20:23) Senator MURRAY. Mr. Lindsey, do you know her? 399 Mr. LINDSEY. No, ma'am. Senator MURRAY. Mr. Podesta? Mr. PODESTA. No. Senator MURRAY. Mr. Ickes? Mr. ICKES. No, I do not. Senator MURRAY. Did any of you try to pressure Roger Altman not to recuse himself because you thought he would be more lenient toward the Madison case than Ellen Kulka would be? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No. Mr. PODESTA. No. Mr. LINDSEY. No. Mr. ICKES. I did not and I repeat what I've said before at this hearing and elsewhere that it was my clear recollection that Mr. Altman said in the February 2nd meeting that he was basically going to follow the recommendations of the staff attorneys. Senator MURRAY. And let me get to the final questions which I really think are the most critical questions we can ask and I want each one of you to answer this. Have you ever done anything, anything whatsoever, to impede or derail an investigation at the RTC or the Department of Justice? Mr. PODESTA. Absolutely not. Mr. LINDSEY. No. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No. Mr. ICKES. No. Senator MURRAY. Are any of you aware of anybody who is responsible for derailing or impeding a investigation into Madison? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No. Mr. PODESTA. No. Mr. LINDSEY. No. Mr. ICKES. No. Senator MURRAY. And do any of you know of anybody or have you yourself ever seen the criminal referrals? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. No. Mr. PODESTA. No. Mr. LINDSEY, No. Mr. ICKES. No. Senator MURRAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Murray. Senator Hatch. Senator HATCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Stephanopoulos, let me approach this with you. Some have tried to explain the events which occurred on February 25th as a minor political gaffe, "political gaffe." However, given the testimony this Committee has heard this week Senator DODD. What date is that you are talking about? I'm sorry. Senator HATCH. February 25th. If you take the testimony that this Committee has been given this week, I believe it would be irresponsible Senator KERRY. I'm sorry, I didn't follow that February 24th was the testimony; right? Senator HATCH. I'm talking about the events which occurred on February 25th. Senator KERRY. OK. 400 Senator HATCH. I personally believe it would be irresponsible for the Congress to dump that position absent significant additional inquiry. In his testimony before this Committee, Mr. Altman confirmed that you wanted the RTC to try and get rid of or fire Mr. Stephens. Now that's the Altman hearing testimony. In addition we have Jean Hanson's testimony, both in her deposition and in this hearing, that Mr. Steiner told her after his discussions with you and Mr. Altman that the White House wanted to get rid of Mr. Stephens. Now, Ms. Hanson also testified that, following this conversation with you or following his conversation with you, Josh Steiner suggested that Ms. Kulka be fired and that the RTC case be given to the Independent Counsel. As well, we have Mr. Steiner's testimony in his diary, all of which indicate this is more than just a political gaffe situation. Now, as Mr. Steiner testified, you Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Senator, if I may. Senator HATCH. Let me ask the question first. As Mr. Steiner testified, you called him after the White House learned that Altman had recused himself; right? That's when that call occurred? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Again, I would say, first of all, that I'm not sure who called who, whether he called me to inform me but we had a conversation. Senator HATCH. That conversation occurred after Mr. Altman Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. After Mr. Altman had had a conversation with The New York Times. Senator HATCH. And said he would recuse himself. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Yes. Senator HATCH. Mr. Ickes-as Mr. Ickes testified in his deposition, when you learned of Mr. Altman's recusal on the 25th you expressed surprise. Now, that's true, isn't it? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Oh, certainly, sir. I was surprised by the manner in which he recused himself, yes. Senator HATCH. I understand. Mr. Steiner testified that your telephone conversation occurred first, prior to the call with Mr. Altman. Indeed you testified that your phone call with Mr. Steiner was prior to the Altman/Ickes conference and I think you affirm this in your opening statement. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I believe that's true, sir, yeah. Senator HATCH. OK. Mr. Steiner also testified that after his call from you, he was present in Mr. Altman's office later in the day, in that particular day and that you and Mr. Ickes called Mr. Altman. It's correct that you and Mr. Ickes called Mr. Altman later in that day? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Yes, sir, it is. Senator HATCH. OK. I just want to get these facts straight because I think some of them are hard to follow. Returning to the first call, the one either from Mr. Steiner to you or from you to Mr. Steiner, Mr. Steiner has testified clearly that your voice was raised in that but you've kind of indicated Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Oh, I grant that, sir. Senator HATCH. OK. Mr. Steiner's testimony, in his deposition, Mr. Steiner testified that you called him but you're not sure of that. 401 Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I'm not certain. Senator HATCH. It could have been that? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. it could have been either way, I just don't know. Senator HATCH. In your deposition, you testified that the reason you asked about Mr. Stephens' hiring was that you were "anticipating questions from the press." Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Certainly, sir, I was expecting given such a surprising choice I would expect that Anne Devereaux of The Washington Post or Doug Joel of The New York Times would ask. Senator HATCH. I understand, You admitted in your deposition that at the time of your phone call with Mr. Steiner there had been no press inquiries to you concerning the hiring of Mr. Stephens; that's right, isn't it?