August 4, 1994 - Part 8
August 4, 1994 - Part 8
(17:55:53) Mr. ICKES. I think in hindsight, Senator, there is no question that we should have, Mr. Stephanopoulos and I should have contacted Counsel's Office, but again I want to be within the, I think, both the letter and the spirit of the memorandum. But again I want to emphasize that the purpose of the phone call was to verify whether or not he'd recused himself so that we could respond accurately and quickly to the press in that regard. Senator ROTH. Again, let me ask you, was there any effort made to educate White House staff members about the requirements of this memorandum? Mr. ICKES. I didn't join the White House staff Senator until January. I don't know when that memorandum was circulated. I know that when I came to the White House staff, a copy of it was given to me. I don't know what steps in general were taken. Senator ROTH. A copy was given you when you were first employed? Mr. ICKES. Yes. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Sir, if I may. I don't have the Nussbaum memorandum in front of me, but I would just like to clarify. I'm not certain that this was an investigative or an adjudicative matter that required the clearance. I would say in the future it would also always be prudent to get that clearance and clearly in hindsight, it would have helped to have talked to the Counsel first. But I do believe seeking this information was entirely proper. Remember, this was a discussion that began with discussing what Mr. Altman was saying to the press about the recusal. It was not dealing specifically with the investigative or the adjudicative system. And second, it was a question about how Jay Stephens came to be hired. Again I'm not certain, I do not have the memorandum in front of me. I can say, as I said to you earlier, that clearly talking to the Counsel first would be prudent and would be smart. And it would probably have been better had we done it, but I'm not certain, if you are talking about the letter of the guidelines, how that falls. But that's simply a point that can be clarified by looking at them. Senator KERRY. Senator Roth, let me say that we're already over by a minute or so. I don't want to cut you off, like the Chairman did, but I just want Senator ROTH. I want to point out that I think the memorandum is very clear and there are no exceptions to its requirements and of course it was written for non-lawyers, so I do not think it is particularly technical. So I agree with you that this is in conflict with the requirements of the Nussbaum memorandum. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator KERRY. Senator Campbell. Senator CAMPBELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 392 Mr. Lindsey, it's my understanding you said you told President Clinton about the press inquiries on the Madison referrals; is that correct? Mr. LINDSEY. Yes, sir. Senator CAMPBELL. That was after the call on October 4th from Jim Lyons in Denver. Mr. LINDSEY. That's correct. Senator CAMPBELL. Did the President have any reaction, or did he instruct you to take any action or not to take any action or to do anything? Mr. LINDSEY. No, he did not instruct me to do anything, didn't ask me to do anything, didn't suggest I do anything. And I didn't do anything. Senator CAMPBELL. Also, you testified at one point that when Roger Altman came to the White House to say that he had decided not to recuse himself, some people congratul ated him. We've had different, conflicting testimony about the reaction to his decision to recuse himself As a Senior Adviser to the President, did you feel any responsibility to encourage him to do so or to not do so? Mr. LINDSEY. Well, first of all, I don't think that's my testimony. I was not in the meeting when Roger came to the White House, so I have no idea what happened. Senator CAMPBELL. My notes may be in error, thanks, I appreciate that. Mr. Stephanopoulos, Mr. Steiner describes in his diary rather descriptively and vividly your phone call with him. You don't remember it that way and didn't recollect saying anything like we should get rid of him, talking about Mr. Stephens. But you have said that you were blowing off steam. Do you remember any specific things you did say in that conversation dealing with Mr. Stephens?