August 4, 1994 - Part 8
August 4, 1994 - Part 8
(17:51:24) Hearings coverage resumes: Senator ROTH. I would just point out that the Nussbaum memorandum does go on to state, and I quote, "there is generally no justification for any White House involvement in particular adjudicative or rulemaking proceedings," and investigative proceedings are 390 covered as well. Then it points out that, regarding pending criminal and civil matters, the memorandum states "it undermines the administration of justice if the White House even appears to be interfering in such cases." Do you agree with that statement? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I certainly follow the memo and I agree with the memo, sir. I do believe, sir, and maybe I'm mistaken , but I do believe in the memo there are certain defined exceptions for getting information or especially for dealing with press matters, Still it is wise and it is-we are supposed to talk with the Counsel first, but I believe there is some exemption for information and press matters. If I'm mistaken, I stand to be corrected. Senator ROTH. Insofar as I am aware, there are no exceptions for press purposes. The memorandum, as a matter of fact, is quite sweeping in its language, and says specifically that in cases involving investigative, adjudicative or regulatory matters that the Office of White House Counsel should be or must be contacted. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I agree with that, sir, and it certainly was an oversight on my part not to contact the Counsel's Office. Senator ROTH. Was any effort made with this memorandum, to make sure that all White House personnel were familiar with the memorandum and its requirements? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. It had been circulated. Senator ROTH. It had been circulated. Was any effort given to actually educate people as to what the memorandum required? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I believe at the time it probably was, sir. As I said, this was a year later. There's no excuse, I grant you. It was an oversight on my part not to contact the Counsel and that was a mistake. Senator ROTH. Mr. Ickes, do you recall that you and Mr. Stephanopoulos had this phone conversation with Mr. Altman? Mr. ICKES. Yes. Senator ROTH. And are or were you familiar with Mr. Nussbaum's memorandum prohibiting such contact? Mr. ICKES. I'm generally familiar, yes. Senator ROTH. What do you mean by "generally"? Mr. ICKES. Well, I couldn't give you word by word, Senator, but I have read the memorandum, and I'm familiar with the thrust of the memorandum. Senator ROTH. Did you seek approval from the White House Counsel? Mr. ICKES. No, I did not. I associate myself with Mr. Stephanopoulos' remarks in that regard but I would also point out that the purpose of that, of the phone call that we made was to ver- ify whether or not Mr, Altman had in fact recused himself. We were taking press calls on that, and felt that we really needed to know so we could respond accurately and quickly to the press, but again I associate myself with Mr. Stephanopoulos' remarks. We should have contacted the Counsel's Office. Senator ROTH. One of the conversations at least, Mr. Stephanopoulos, was to determine how Mr. Stephens was hired and that was, I believe, not public information at that time. 391 Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I'm not certain that's true, sir. It certainly is information that would be provided to the public. I assume it was done by an open and independent board. Senator ROTH. Let me ask you, Mr. Ickes, do you agree that that telephone conversation was in conflict with the requirements of the ethics memorandum?