August 4, 1994 - Part 8
August 4, 1994 - Part 8
(16:45:43) Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Senator, I really wasn't a part of any of those conversations, and as you might imagine, we haven't had a lot of internal discussions about them since then because of all these investigations. Senator GRAMM. You never heard anybody suggest that they had told him. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. I have not had discussions of that manner. Mr. PODESTA. No, Senator. Mr. LINDSEY. No, Sir. Senator GRAMM. Well, I'd just like to say in passing, not since the St. Valentine's Day Massacre in Chicago have we seen a situation where something so dramatic happened, and yet, as in the case of that massacre, nobody heard a shot fired, Roger Altman comes over to give you the message that he's stepping aside, that he believes that he ought to step out of an investigation that could, in some way, involve an old friend, the President, and he leaves having changed his mind. And nowhere is there any evidence whatsoever that anybody suggested to him that he change his mind Mr. PODESTA, Senator Mr. ICKES. Senator, that is not my testimony and I don't think that's the testimony I've heard. Roger Altman came in and said that he was considering Ling whether or not to recuse himself. And there was discussion about that. At bottom, everyone at that meeting on February 2nd said it was up to him. There were some people who felt they didn't see any legal or ethical necessity, but it was up to him. The second point I would make, Senator--- Senator GRAMM. I'm going to stop you because Mr. ICKES. The second point I want to make Senator DODD. Let him respond. You've asked him to respond, Senator GRAMM. I asked a yes or no question. Senator DODD. He ought to have a chance to explain the answer. Witnesses should have an opportunity to be heard. Mr. ICKES. Thank you, Senator Dodd. The second point I would make, Senator, it is my recollection that during the course of the meeting on February 2nd, Mr. Altman made it very clear that he was going to follow the recommendations of the Staff of the RTC. Senator GRAMM. And their recommendation was what? Mr. ICKES. I don't know what it was or if there has even been a recommendation. Senator GRAMM. We know from all kinds of sworn statements it was that he step out of the investigation. Mr. ICKES. No Senator GRAMM. And that he didn't. Mr. ICKES. You and I are talking about different recommendations. The recommendation with respect to the handling of the civil suit or the possible civil suit. Senator GRAMM. Well, one of the problems (16:48:07)(tape #10092 ends) we have, Mr. Chairman, is trying to cover a lot of territory, and I don't like to cut anybody off, but we're trying to get to some information. Mr. Lindsey Mr. LINDSEY. Yes, Sir, Senator GRAMM continuing]. We have several sworn statements that Mr. Altman notified the White House about the mentioning of 374 the President in at least one of these 9 criminal referrals. We know a call was made on September 29th with that notification. We know that later, you came into the possession of that information, Did you believe then or do you believe now that it was proper for you to have that information? Mr. LINDSEY. Yes, sir, I believe it was proper to have that information. Senator GRAMM. As I look at your testimony, it appears you never told the President about this information. Mr. LINDSEY. That is not correct. As I indicated, on October 4th, was on a trip with the President. I had a conversation with Jim Lyons, who indicated to me that he and others had had telephone calls from reporters and that the criminal referrals were referenced. After that conversation, I indicated to the President that there were press inquiries about the criminal referrals, that it was my understanding that he was mentioned in those referrals, but that he was not a subject or target. So as soon as there were press inquiries, and as soon as there was some indication that he might get asked or I might get asked, I told the President. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Gramm, your time is up. I'm going to see to it you have as much time as you need to finish, but I do want to stay within the time limits. Senator GRAMM. That's fine, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Kerry. Senator KERRY, Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Senator D'Amato has asked a very important series of questions, perhaps one of the most serious set of questions with respect to this group. I know he's going to come back to them. I'm sure others are because they go to the core of whether or not something improper may or may not have happened. I think we have to look at this a little further. He appropriately asked the witness, is your testimony true? We want to try to get at the facts.' When he said to the witness, is your testimony true, I think he meant, is it true to the best of the witness' memory, is this your testimony because when you say is the testimony true, there are others who contradict the testimony of Mr. Ickes, so that we ' re left trying to determine whether it's true, I mean, the witness can't say that it is, in fact, true.