August 4, 1994 - Part 7
August 4, 1994 - Part 7
(16:40:26) Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Well, again, I can't speak for the diary, sir. In my testimony I described Senator SHELBY. Let me read it to you. Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS [continuing]. The conversation, as I remember it. Senator SHELBY, I'll share it with you and I'll read an excerpt in a conversation with you, he says, and this is the second page that I have here. He said "it was simply outrageous that the RTC had hired him, but even more amazing, when George"-you---"suggested to me that we needed to find a way to get rid of him," that he persuaded you that firing him would be "incredibly stupid and improper." In other words, he calmed you down. Is that a basic outline of what happened? Mr. STEPHANOPOULOS. Well, the basic outline of what happened is what I said in my testimony, Senator. He gave me the facts, and that was the end of the conversation. Senator SHELBY. My time is up. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Shelby. Senator Gramm. Senator GRAMM. Mr. Chairman, I want to try to cover a lot of ground here, so I'd like to begin with some yes/no answers if I Could. I think these are pretty straightforward questions, so let me Pose them. 1, Roger Altman is portrayed in a diary kept by his confidant and the Chief of Staff of the Treasury Department as a tortured man, who is under intense pressure to stay in the Madison investigation. According to a confidential diary, which no one thought would ever be, made public, at this fateful meeting on February 2nd with Nussbaum, Ickes and Williams, the White House told Roger Altman 372 that it was unacceptable that he step aside. In a pros-and-cons, advantages-and- disadvantages memo considering Mr. Altman's taking himself out as the overseer of this investigation of Madison, given that he was a long personal friend and supporter of the President, the number one disadvantage listed is that the White House may feel defenseless prior to the appointment of a new CEO, who would be a political appointee. In light of this picture of internal agony, we have two sworn statements, that on February 1st Roger Altman goes to Secretary Bentsen's office and says, I'm going over to the White House and tell them that I'm getting out of this whole issue. And so he, having said that, having had three people say under oath that he in essence said it, he goes trooping over to the White House. And he goes into the meeting. fie has a memo that says, I'm going to tell them that I am getting out of the Madison investigation. He comes out of the meeting, and he has changed his mind. He goes back to his office. Then, the next day, he comes back over to the White House. First of all, he asked that people be gotten together to hear that he's going to stay in the investigation. He comes into the office, announces to people that he's staying. He turns around and walks out. Now, Mr. Ickes, you were in that meeting, both of those meetings. Did you ever hear anybody on the White House staff say that Roger Altman should stay in this investigation? Did you hear anybody ever say to him, don't recuse yourself, you shouldn't recuse yourself, it's not in our interest to recuse yourself, you probably ought not to recuse yourself? Mr. ICKES. Which of the questions, Senator Gramm, do you want me to answer? Senator GRAMM. Any one I want to ask you if you ever heard anybody say to Roger Altman in any way, in any language, "stay in this investigation." Mr. ICKES. I don't recall anybody saying that. What I recall, Senator, is what I've testified to innumerable times, that there were questions-that he raised questions, indicated he was thinking about it, that there were people who wondered whether or not it was legally necessary or ethically necessary Senator GRAMM. But nobody said to him Mr. ICKES. The bottom, Senator, it was up to him to make that decision and he did. Senator GRAMM. But you never heard anybody say to him, don't get out of your oversight capacity on this investigation? Mr. ICKES. I do not recall anybody saying that, Senator GRAMM. Now, I know the other three gentlemen weren't at the meeting, but obviously they're involved daily at the White House. They hear these discussions. I'd like to ask each one of them basically a yes or no question. Have you ever heard anybody at the White House suggest that they ever suggested or were aware that anybody else suggested to Roger Altman that he not remove himself in his oversight capacity of the investigation of Whitewater, even though we knew from these referrals that the President and the First Lady's name had been mentioned? 373