August 4, 1994 - Part 7
August 4, 1994 - Part 7
(16:15:40) Mr. ICKES. I can't explain why not. As I say, I think-my recollection is that it came up at the latter part of the meeting, not that much time was spent on it, Senator. The bulk of the meeting was spent on the issue of the statute of limitations. The CHAIRMAN. Wouldn't it be reasonable though, the fact that it did come up and there was some discussion about it and different points of view, you would expect that it would show up on your notes as what happened at the meeting? Mr. ICKES. One might think so, but it's not-it's not-I don't think it's inexplicable that I didn't put it down there. As I say, it was a matter that came up toward the last of the meeting. I don't recall much time being spent on it. The CHAIRMAN. On page 7 of your testimony, you say here toward the end of the February 2nd meeting, Mr. Altman also stated that he was considering recusing himself from the Madison matter. Can you remember how he said it? What did he say? 364 Mr. ICKES. As I recall, Senator, toward the end of that meeting, he indicated he was giving consideration whether to recuse himself or not and there ensued, I don't think a very long- The CHAIRMAN. Before we go to what followed, I want to try to get as clear a memory as you have as to what he would have said Mr. ICKES. I can't-as I've said, Senator, before the Senate coun- sels and in other situations in connection with these hearings, don't have an exact recollection word for word. I recall the gist 0 it was that he said toward the end of the meeting that he was con sidering recusing himself. The CHAIRMAN. Now, he's testified to us here that he had reached the decision to recuse himself before this meeting. Therefore, the presumption is that he came in and said that to all of you that were gathered at that meeting, that he had reached the judgment to recuse himself. Are you saying that he did not say that? Mr. ICKES. It is my best recollection, as I sit here today, Senator, that I do not recall him saying that he had decided to recuse himself, I recall that he was considering recusing himself, The CHAIRMAN. Let me just read to you what was on his briefing sheet that he had and had gone over before he went in, and I will read the text, "I have decided that I will recuse myself from the decisionmaking process as interim CEO of the RTC because of my relationship with the President and Mrs. Clinton." This document supports his recollection of his decision, and his preparation and intention to go in and to say that. You say that when he got there, he did not say that. Mr. ICKES. I can only give you my best recollection, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. Now, after he said whatever precisely it was that he said about recusal, did he then, did he put it in a form where he said I'd like your opinion? Mr. ICKES. As I said, Senator, I don't recall word for word. There was some discussion that followed his statement that he was considering recusal. The CHAIRMAN. Here's my point, and I think you will understand where I'm going here. I'm wondering if he made the comment in a form in which he was, in a sense, putting you on notice, or whether he made the comment from the point of view saying, I'm thinking about this and now I'd really like your opinion on it so let me hear from all of you as to what your reaction is. Mr. ICKES. I don't recall him putting that, certainly not in the latter form. He stated, as I recall, the gist of it was that he was thinking about recusal, and there was some discussion following that statement. The CHAIRMAN. I'm going to run out of time, but the interesting part of this is the discussion that then follows. Who said what an in what order and in what manner, So I'd like you, before my time expires, to tell me who was the first person that responded insofar as you can recall? Mr. ICKES. Senator, this happened a long time ago. A lot Of things have happened in between that. I have a very busy schedule, as do you all. Much has merged from what has been discussed in the press and otherwise. I cannot recall the specifics of who spoke first, who spoke second, nor word for word what they said. I can only give you the gist. 365 The CHAIRMAN. I would expect that type of answer, frankly, I think for most of us, What did Mr. Nussbaum say? Mr. ICKES. As I recall, Mr. Nussbaum, as did I, as did others, asked what the basis for his thinking that he might want to recuse himself, and as I recall, Mr. Altman basically said that he felt that he had a-not that he felt that he did, in fact, have a very long friendship with the Clintons, with both the President and Mrs. Clinton, and thought that that might be a basis for recusing himself, but it is my very distinct recollection, Senator, that he had not yet decided. It is also my very distinct recollection that all par-ties at that meeting said that it is up to him to decide whether or not to decide whether he would recuse himself.