August 4, 1994 - Part 2
August 4, 1994 - Part 2
(10:05:25) Let me also ask you this. Senator Gramm just made reference the words in the diaries. We have heard some rather florid language in diaries over these last several days. I almost think someone were an understudy for Louis Lamour to hear some of the language. Are you in the habit of talking about Mrs. Clinton's moods with people in the White House, friends of yours, and how she is doing, from day to day, or feeling? 1. Is that something you are likely to share with even close friends? MS. WILLIAMS. It is not something that I would share with close, friends. It is not something that I would share with anyone, maybe my immediate staff. Otherwise, I think it just amounts to gossip. Senator DODD. Well, I happen to agree with you, and I presume you would not be in your job long if that were the case. I certainly would not tolerate it in my office, and I presume the First Family". would not be particularly anxious to have someone discussing their' moods with people. So I accept your answer in that matter as being fairly good. Mr. McLarty, welcome to the Committee. Mr. McLARTY. Thank you, Senator. Senator DODD. Let me run through a series of questions for you. When did you first learn about the RTC's criminal referral regarding Madison? Mr. McLARTY. Some time in November. Senator DODD. Of? Mr. McLARTY. 1993. Senator DODD. And when did you first learn that Jean Hanson had spoken with Mr. Nussbaum on September 29, 1993? Mr. McLARTY. After Mr. Altman's testimony to this Committee, after February 24th. Senator DODD, After February 24th? Mr. MCLARTY. Yes, sir, that is correct. Senator DODD, Let me ask you this. Do you believe it was appropriate for Ms, Hanson to have had that discussion with Mr. Nussbaum and others at the White House? Mr. Chairman, I am having a hard time Mr. Chairman, I am just having a hard time hearing. [Pause.] Do you believe that it was appropriate for Ms. Hanson to have had the discussion with Mr. Nussbaum? Mr. McLARTY. I asked Mr. Cutler, the White House Counsel, to look into all of the matters in this time period, and I believe that he concluded that he felt this meeting was appropriate, and I, would rely on his judgment. 287 Senator DODD. Do you have any knowledge, Mr. McLarty, as to whether or not Ms. Hanson received instructions? We have heard a lot of different words used to describe how she was, how that meeting occurred. I gather it was around the Waco discussion, and at the end of that, sort of an aside. We have had enough testimony, I think, to probably establish that was the case. Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Ms. Hanson was sent to that meeting by Mr. Altman? Mr. McLARTY. No, I do not, Senator. Senator DODD. Now, you did not attend the February 2, 1994, meeting? Mr. MCLARTY. That is correct, Senator Dodd. Senator DODD. But you received a call after that meeting from Mr. Altman? Mr. MCLARTY. Yes. Mr. Altman called me a couple of days after that meeting, and I returned his call. Senator DODD. Well, as it pertains to the subject matter before this hearing, did any part of that conversation touch on Mr. Altman's discussions during the February 2nd meeting? Mr. MCLARTY. I do not know that he characterized them that way. He called me, I returned his call a couple of days later. When we made connections, he noted he was weighing the matter of recusal. I listened. Senator DODD. Let me stop you there. This was a couple of days after, this is like maybe February 4th, then? Mr. MCLARTY. Somewhere in that time frame. Senator DODD. So it is after February 3rd, it is after the February 3rd meeting, as well? Mr. MCLARTY. Senator, as I recall it, it was a couple, three days after the February 2nd date that we made connections. Senator DODD. He is weighing recusal at this point? Mr. MCLARTY. He told me he was weighing recusal. I listened to him, told him I was sympathetic with the situation, and encouraged him to make the judgment he felt was the right one. It was a brief conversation. Senator DODD. Did you get the sense from him in that conversation that he was sort of agonizing over this decision somehow? Mr. McLARTY. I do not know that I would use the word agonizing. He said he was weighing the matter, as I recall the telephone conversation, Senator. Senator DODD. Did he mention to you at all what had happened at the February 2nd meeting regarding conversations with Mr. Nussbaum and others about reasons why he should not recuse himself? Mr. McLARTY. No , it was not a lengthy conversation and I do not recall that kind of detail in this telephone visit. Senator DODD. I presume you have explored the issue, since it has now been a matter of public discussion for some time about what happened at that February 2nd meeting regarding the recusal discussion. Can you share with the Committee what you know about what was said at that meeting and whether or not, in your opinion, what was said by Mr. Nussbaum and others constituted pressure, for 288 lack of a better word, since that one's been used the most around here in the last several days? Mr. McLARTY. Well, Senator, it is my understanding that Mr. Altman, I believe, has testified he did not feel any pressure and it is my understanding that the other people that attended that meeting felt they were not applying pressure, In terms of my own opinion, I think there has been a number of views expressed about the matter, and Mr. Cutler and others can speak to that. I am of the view, really, very much like Secretary Bentsen, that it really is up to the individual to make his own judgment and that is what I encouraged Deputy Secretary Altman to do.