August 4, 1994 - Part 5
August 4, 1994 - Part 5
(13:15:29) Mr. McLARTY. Senator, if I understand your question, let me try to respond to it as best I possibly can. As I've already commented this morning and testified, I don't know of any evidence to suggest that Mr. Altman had pressure or intense pressure to recuse himself. I certainly did not convey that to him. I think the President's comment probably is in the context-and Mr. Nussbaum and others can discuss this more fully, I believe Mr. Klein and Mr. Eggleston did yesterday in their panelthere were a number of other nominees that were before various Committees and this matter of recusal, if you had any relationship with the President was an issue, and that really was a very serious issue and one that I think particularly Mr. Nussbaum was concerned about. Senator GRAMM. Let me ask you your opinion on something, if I may, if it's appropriate. Do you believe, given the close association 'I with the President that Mr. Altman should have recused himself, which again, to speak in the language of the people who are listen- ing, that he should have taken himself out of the Madison inves- tigation from day one? Mr. McLARTY. My opinion is that Mr. Altman had all the facts to make that decision he should make that decision. You've charac- terized his relationship with the President. It's not unusual to a relationship. I don't think perhaps the relationship is as close and long-standing as perhaps you suggested, but I, think Mr- Alt', man has been a person, at least in my dealings, that's always been 337 evenhanded and objective and if he reached a conclusion he could in this matter, then that was his decision, Senator. And I think that's what he was weighing. Senator GRAMM. Well, I think that's correct. I guess I would have to go back to the point and pick a real-life example. I've known Senator Domenici since I came to Congress. We're not childhood friends. I never borrowed any money from him. But if I found myself in a position where I had to decide about things like criminal referrals with relationship to my friend, Senator Domenici, or if I found myself having to oversee an investigation of him-and I'm confident that I or no one else will ever be in that Position, which is why I chose him-I think immediately without giving it a thought as long as a heartbeat that I would say, maybe I can be objective, but I think people are going to question whether I can be objective or not. And it wouldn't take a second to say, I want to, in the legal word, recuse myself from this. Yet we have this long, tortured process, with all of this pressure being reported in private, for Mr. Altman to stay on, no pressure recorded in private for him to leave. It strikes me as strange logic. I don't understand the logic the President is expressing here, that he was concerned that Mr. Altman was being forced to withdraw himself from the investigation, when it seems to me that there's, instead, this overwhelming pressure for him to stay on. All of this pressure for him to stay was applied, even though there should have never been any real doubt in anybody's mind that he should have not gotten into it to begin with. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a response, Mr. McLarty? The time has run, but do you have a response you want to make to that? Mr. McLARTY. Yes, very quickly. The CHAIRMAN. Please do. Mr. McLARTY, First, the testimony has been that there was not pressure prior on this decision and I'd like to respond to that. Second, I recall an exchange, a brief exchange between Mr. Klein and Senator Bennett last night, I believe about this recusal matter, and people can look at this matter differently. To me, Mr. Altman was the person who could know in his gut, I think as Senator Bennett said, whether he could be objective and fair and I think if he concluded that he would indeed feel that way and would be objective and fair. I think that's a decision that each individual has to make, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. Well, we may have to come back to that. Senator Moseley-Braun. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR MOSELEY-BRAUN Senator MOSELEY-BRAUN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not subscribe to the theory that once everything has been said, everybody has to say it. And so I'm going to just try to resolve a couple of points or implications that may have been raised previously and then ask the witnesses some general questions. In the first instance with regard to the Senator from Texas, I think almost may have mischaracterized the situation because Mr. Altman Was -not, at the time of any of these contacts, involved with crimi- rial referrals at all, in which we know from the record already the President was a witness and not a target of the investigation. 338 Your conversation about the analogy that you used with regard to Senator Domenici suggested it was a case in which