August 4, 1994 - Part 5
August 4, 1994 - Part 5
(13:10:18) Now Mr. Altman tells us under oath-Mr. Altman says under oath that his diaries accurately reflected his discussions with you, Maggie Williams. He said his duties-his diaries included entries which had historical significance. In other words, this wasn't just a collection of things. They had historical significance and were intended to be accurate. Now I'm going to ask you a question. Are you saying that Mr. Altman's testimony is inaccurate? Ms. WILLIAMS. Sir, what I'm saying to you is I am also under oath here and as I have said before, I do not have a recollection of these conversations. Senator DAMATO. So then he may have been accurate and he testifies to us that they were written for historical significance and intended to be accurate. Now you say you don't have a recollection. MS. WILLIAM& No, it is not now that I say Senator D'AMATO. I don't mean to be well, you tell me. Ms. WILLIAMS. No, it is not now that I have said. I have consistently said even to Mr. Altman himself that I do not have a recollection of having any of these conversations with you. Senator D'AMATO. I thank you, Senator GRAMM. Mr. Chairman, let me try to clarify here. I don't think anybody is trying to make any big deal out of this thing, but here's the point. You have a person like Mr. Altman, who is writing in a confidential diary that he assumes at the time is never going to be read by anybody, and he says, not that he read something in the newspaper, but that on Whitewater, "Maggie told me that Hillary Rodham Clinton was paralyzed by it." Twice under oath he's gone back and verified that entry. Obviously, the natural thing to wonder is why in the world would anybody make up that entry, which they never thought anybody would read, and then at risk of perjury defend it twice. The difficulty we have is to square that likelihood with the recollection of someone who says I don't go around talking about the lady I work for. Ms. Williams, I assume if you did make that statement it would be a pretty extraordinary conversation, and obviously Mr. Altman thought this one was. But that's where the confusion is coming from, It's just one of these occasions where you have two people, and they have two different stories. Let me say, Mack, I want to ask you a question, and it's something I'm confused about. I've tried to go back and put all this together and understand what was going on. I read these internal diaries, which I give greater credence to, because people wrote them from their heart. They assumed they were never going to be read. When we say things publicly, we know they are going to be read and, as humans, we all have the tendency to at least put things in the best light for us, if Dot put them in a light that is brighter than the sun. In any case, all through this period we have these references in these diaries about intense pressure that Altman was under from 336 the White House, that he had been told by the White House that stepping aside in the Madison investigation was "unacceptable," These are powerful words that people generally don't make up or confuse with other words. Last night, the President brought into this discussion a whole new perspective. When he said, "The only thing that upset me'-- this is about Altman's deciding to take himself out of the Madison" Guaranty investigation---- "The only thing that upset me was that I did not want to see him stampeded into it." Here is the point. We're reading what Mr. Altman is saying in his diary, what his confidant, the Chief of Staff, is saying in his diary, and there at least it is described that all the pressure from the White House is for Mr. Altman to stay on the investigation. Where is this-why do you think the President has reached a conclusion that there was this pressure stampeding him to get out of it? It seems to me that you can make a case based on what we know was in Mr. Altman's mind and in the minds of the people around him. All of his peers at Treasury said he ought to get out of it, he's one of the President's closest friends, he has this long connection with the President from being in college, people are going to say at least there is a potential conflict of interest here with his friend. We know that. But in terms of pressure, as he perceives it, it's all coming from one direction, from the White House, and it's all to stay in the Madison investigation. Explain to me, if you can, where the President sees this pressure