August 2, 1994 - Part 12
August 2, 1994 - Part 12
(01:35:23) Mr. ALTMAN. I think I've already answered that but I'll be happy to do it again. His advice, as usual was awfully good, was it's a personal decision. I think he knew it wasn't legally or ethically required. It's a personal decision, If I were you I'd do it and the essence of what he said then was because it's in your self-interest, something like that. Senator GRAMM. Did you say, as Ms. Hanson says you did, that you were going to do it and you were going to set up the meeting? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't remember exactlv what I said. I may well have said that's a good idea or I probably should recuse myself I may well have done that. Obviously, when I brought it up, 24 hours later, I had decided to say what I said, which was that I've been advised to recuse myself and I intended to take it. Senator GRAMM. Mr. Altman, I'm going to take this up, because it's even embarrassing to me. The point here is not that you brought it up, not that you talked about bringing it up, but that ou said under oath tonight that it was extemporaneous or you blurted it out, and et I have given you two sworn statements that contradict that, and then I have given you a briefing paper. I don't know about other people, but when I go to meetings and somebody's given me a briefing paper, I look it over before I go. Did you ever look at this briefing paper? 553 Mr. ALTMAN. I think I had it on the way to the meeting, Senator DODD. That's bow I do- Senator GRAMM. Did you ever look at the briefing paper? Mr. ALTMAN. I said I think I bad it on the way to the meeting. Senator GRAMM. You had it. Mr. ALTMAN. I'm sorry. On the way to the meeting or going to the meeting, I Senator GRAMM. Let me go to my other questions. I just thought that that should be cleared up. Let me set the environment we're in, because this I see as an important question, and Im just confused about what the answer is. You've got all these people who are, saying all these things about recusal and its consequences, that it's all a matter of public record. Nussbaum is saying that, Ellen Kulka was considered too tough. Steiner is saying in his pros and cons for recusal that the White House would be left defenseless, Steiner is saying in his diary that ou are under intense pressure. Forty-one Republican Senators have signed a letter saying you should recuse yourself Mr. ALTMAN. No, Senator. The word "recusal," I believe we can pull it outright here, I don't believe the word "recusal" appeared in that letter. Why don't we pull it out? Senator GRAMM. OK. In the meantime, strike it, it's not essen- tial. Senator DODD. Well, it is kind of essential. Those are the kind of things that get said in a hearing at 1:30 in the morning. People make those charges. It becomes a litany. Let's see the letter. I'd like to see the letter. Senator GRAMM. OK If I may go on, let me pose my question while we're looking at it; is that reasonable? Mr. ALTMAN. We'll try to find it here and see if we have it. Senator GRAMM. I withdraw the letter, pending finding it, Now, that is the general environment. You decide on February 25 to recuse yourself. Did your recusal have anything to do with Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan case? I think I've heard you say several times it had nothing to do with Madison Savings & Loan, and I'd just like a yes or no answer. Did it or not? Mr. ALTMAN. What I keep saying, Senator, and I just think this is the right way to put it-I'm sorry, I guess I don't see it the same way you do. What I keep saying is whether I recused myself or whether I didn't could not have had any bearing on the investigation so in my view depending on bow you use the word "case" Senator GRAMM. I'm going to have to stop you. I didn't ask anything related to that. You can answer your own questions on your own time. Senator KERRY. If I can say, Mr. Chairman, in deference Senator GRAMM. I'm sorry, I don't yield and what I am proposing here is perfectly reasonable. Senator KERRY. I'm not trying to take your time. Senator GRAMM. I'm saying you recused yourself, OK The question is I'm asking you, not did it make any difference, but did your recusal have anything to do with Madison Savings & Loan, Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan? 554 Mr. ALTMAN. First of all, Senator, about 30 seconds ago, you said did it have anything to do with the case, My answer is it couldn't have had any bearing whatsoever on the case so, no, not really. You can. Senator GRAMM. Did you ever recuse yourself on any other case? Mr. ALTMAN. Sure-oh, I'm sorry. I've recused myself on -matters, I don't think on any other case. Senator GRAMM. So this is the only S&L case youve re yourself on. Mr. ALTMAN. I'd have to go back and check but it might been. Senator GRAMM. Why did you recuse yourself? Mr. ALTMAN. I recused myself because there could be an appearance, only an appearance, but there could be an appearance of conflict. There was no real conflict, but there could be an appearance of it. Senator GRAMM. OK, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dodd--Senator Kerry was also Mr. ALTMAN. Incidentally, Senator Gramm, if I can just say The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dodd. Mr. ALTMAN---I pulled out the letter you, the one you referred to and this is the one 41 Republican Senators and there is the word "recusal" is not in here.