August 3, 1994 - Part 8
August 3, 1994 - Part 8
(19:35:28) We had a discussion going back and forth earlier when I was here between one of our Members and Mr. Eggleston about the fact that everybody knew that Mr. Altman was in phantom recusal. Everybody knew that he was going to recuse himself if anything happened. Everybody knew that these civil servants below him were the kind of people that weren't going to let him get away with any politic's or hanky-panky. Everybody knew that, but the problem is whatever kind of logic you try to impose on top of this-and I think the natural inclination of the human mind is to try to impose logic-the bottom line is the facts show clearly and convincingly that tremendous exertions of effort were undertaken to prevent this Committee, and perhaps the world, from knowing that the recusal issue was being discussed, Mr. Ickes asked Ms. Hanson, "how many people were told you were discussing it? It's good that it's a limited number. We don't want people to know about it." We have diaries written from the heart that Mr. Altman was told that it was unacceptable to recuse himself. He was under intense Pressure, we re told. The problem is, if it didn't matter, what was all this about? I know you can't answer that question, but I'll just give my opinion It is clear to any objective observer that Mr. -Altman desperately did not want this to be known and was willing to risk being in a position where he could be accused of being less than honest-if it were 12:00 last night I would have said "lying"-to a of Congress, knowing that that is a violation of law. 150 And I think that any reasonable person has to give that heavy weight in this discussion. This whole idea of phantom recusal--this whole idea of, well, he really recused himself but he didn't want to tell anybody about it. He didn't want them to know that he had recused himself. I know we can say those things. I know it's convenient to talk about them, and I know this is the Congress and there's a different standard of language we have here than in the real world, but nobody believes that. Mr. KLEIN. Senator Gramm, can I respond to that? Senator GRAMM. Yes, sir. Mr. KLEIN. I can't put myself in Mr. Altman's mind, but I think I can say something for me and my colleagues here, and that is as far as the White House was concerned, I think the evidence is quite strong that we were not trying to hide this fact of recusal, and what I mean by that is, Mr. Eggleston has testified, and there's no dispute about it, he called the day before the hearing with respect to the recusal. Senator GRAMM. Mr. Klein, I don't in any way dispute that. The person who tried to hide this, desperately tried to hide it, was Mr, Altman. He went to incredible lengths to hide it and, in fact, produced a situation where now there is clear and convincing evidence that he knowingly in that March letter withheld very important information. And while I'm on that subject, let me say that we've had many people testify before this Committee, but if I were in the White House, you're exactly the kind of person I would want to be a counsel for me. I appreciate the direct way you answer questions. I appreciate the way you get to the bottom line. And my guess is, had Mr, Altman had people like you working directly for him or had he been a person like you, we wouldn't even be here. Now, I want to go back to you, Mr. Eggleston, to discuss this meeting on February 3rd, a meeting we know almost nothing about. You were there. We know, at least by sworn testimony, that Maggie Williams was the person that Roger Altman called, and we' have her recollection of the call: "Well, Roger called, and he said. to me, I decided not to recuse. And he said, I want to tell some people in the White House that." I guess he thought it was going to be glorious news. And then she says-which is very interesting to me "I remember thinking to myself, so tell him. Big deal." She didn't literally say "big deal." But people out on the street would have said "big deal." This is a sworn statement. You don't say "big deal" in a sworn statement. And then he said that he's on his way to his meeting and get some people together, because I want to come over and tell them. Was the tenor of that meeting that Mr. Altman came in and said, I have glorious news, I've decided not to recuse myself.?