August 3, 1994 - Part 6
August 3, 1994 - Part 6
(17:46:04) He was trying to have it both ways. He was trying to be in a position where he could say to Ms. Kulka, to the people in the RTC, to whatever ethics officers that would talk to him, look, I'm going 123 to have nothing to do with this, I've made my decision to turn the whole thing over to Kulka and he could say to the White House, that was clearly in a position of preferring him as the decisionmaker, hey, I have not recused myself, I'm still in the position, you don't need to worry. Now the whole matter became moot because events overtook it. But let us not pay so much attention to the fact that events overtook it that it did happen in this fashion at a time when no one was sure that events were going to overtake it. No one was sure that the Congress was going to extend the statute of limitations. No one was sure that Mr. Altman was in fact not going to be called upon to make a decision. So he had himself set up with the thing looking both ways, And that to me is the problem with the "de facto recusal." It got him into a political pickle, it got him into this kind of controversy, it got him before this Committee for however many hours it was, It created a disaster in his career and I think it is a very illustrative lesson that we will all learn. And when there comes a time when your gut tells you, regardless of what the specifics and technicalities of the law might be, when your gut tells you I better get out of this, you are far better off to follow your gut and stick with it and do not change it and do not say, well, I'll try to be de facto this way and de jure another way. You take your position and you stand with it and that's why Mr. Altman is in so much trouble and that's why this Committee is so exercised about it. Senator D'AMATO, I'd just like to make this point and I thank my friend for yielding. If you put it in writing that is the recusal and you can't take it back, and then you're not even in a position to hear anything or to discuss anything. But if you operated under the guise of a de facto, well, then notwithstanding I'm not going to make a final judgment is there and if there's a problem he can insert himself. And that's my observation and I think it kind of dovetails with Senator Bennett and I thank the Senator for yielding, Mr. KLEIN. Senator Bennett, can I respond to your comment, please? Senator BENNETT, Surely. Mr. KLEIN. I think there are two points you make and I think You want to be clear and we all want to be clear about it. One is a point that I think Mr. Cutler has already spoken to. I think it is well recognized at the White House that it would have been far Preferable if the meeting had not occurred on February 2nd, for some of the reasons in terms that you have laid out here. Mr. Eggleston was there. I was not. I would rely on his account to that meeting. Nevertheless that seems to me to be something Mr. Cutler, has already said. The second point you said, with respect, sir, I do not entirely agree with. I think the White House shouldn't be involved, but the issue of when a person recuses, you may be right that people recuse because in their gut they think they can't do the job. But People may recuse because of political pressure, because it is the easy thing to do. And I, at least, think that is inappropriate, I have practiced before many judges that I have known socially, gone to law school with and 1 consider friends, and I have never had a moment's doubt that they could decide fairly. And I find it interesting, 124 frankly, that Republicans all of a sudden see recusal as a universal panacea when for years they have been the party that opposed the Independent Counsel Law precisely on the ground that the Attorney General of the United States should be held accountable to make the tough calls. And I think we let people avoid the hard decisions. Now I do believe, and I don't want to leave any doubt that that decision belonged to Mr. Altman, should have been made by him and him alone, but I think it is a bad message to send to people that you cannot be fair and impartial and call them as you see them because you know somebody or you are friends with somebody. I strongly disagree with that suggestion, sir.