August 3, 1994 - Part 6
August 3, 1994 - Part 6
(17:40:31) Mr. EGGLESTON. The only point I want to add, I've gone long enough, I didn't pick up the last of the points that Mr. Kerry mentioned, I wanted to make sure it wasn't because it was-I'd overlooked it. The issue that Mr. Nussbaum was actually talking about at the time was the perception of recusals-it was the perception of Rickie Tigert having to recuse. It was the perception for not, legal or ethical reasons. She had told, I think this Committee, that she would consult her ethics officer. And my recollection from the press really was that at least to some people that was not acceptable. And Mr- Nussbaum was concerned about a perception, sort of a domino effect, of how it would look if people who did not have a legal or ethical obligation to recuse themselves were nevertheless either being forced to recuse or maybe sua sponte start recusing themselves even though they had no action to take. That was the matter, that was the perception that Mr. Nussbaum was talking about at the time as it relates to this issue. Mr. KLEIN. Senator Riegle, if I can add to that because I had numerous discussions-it is my view as well and I think this is something that Senator Sarbanes raised before that when this started with Rickie Tigert and sort of the price of admission to her confirmation was that she had to agree to a blanket recusal, even no specific matter before her, because she was a "friend of the First Family's," when I know the extent of Rickie Tigert's familiarity 'With the First Family, This seemed to me the worst sort of politics, to be perfectly candid about it, that somehow this was going to be used against the President so that his nominees could not sit on any matter that Was in any way relevant to him and so the cost of all these matters Would be an extraction of recusal. So when Mr. E ggleston says that were important political considerations, there were important 122 political considerations and I at least was very concerned about the politics of the matter. And I think that The CHAIRMAN. In that sense. Mr. KLEIN. And so was Mr. Nussbaum in that sense. The CHAIRMAN, I think that's illuminating and I think it's impor. tant that you have the chance to say that. Senator Bennett. Senator BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do want to follow this direction because I think this issue is the nub of the matter. I will stipulate that you have correctly told us what Mr. Nussbaum was thinking and what his motives are. If that is indeed the case I would also say respectfully that Mr. Nussbaum is wrong. Mr. Nussbaum is seeing shadows that aren't there and that Mr. Nussbaum has missed the point. Let me respond to Mr. Eggleston's rather vigorous, if not passionate, statement that came over and over again. "He did not have a legal or ethical obligation to recuse himself' and he quoted all of the entities that came to that conclusion and said "this carries great weight with me." And that obviously it carried great weight with Mr. Nussbaum. Today we heard from Lloyd Bentsen who said he would have recused himself And Lloyd Bentsen has been around this town to understand the political ramifications, to understand the appearances, to understand all of these circumstances, if it had been his decision he would have recused himself Ms. Hanson, who was the General Counsel of the Treasury Department handling this, recommended that he recuse himself Ms. Kulka, who was the General Counsel of the RTC handling this, recommended that he recuse himself And my memory is that last night he said in hindsight he wishes he had done so and had not responded to pressure, suggestions, whatever in the White House. So I think Mr. Nussbaum carried his point in the meeting and I think subsequent events demonstrate that his point was wrong. However persuasive he may have been by virtue of his intelligence and articulateness or by virtue of his position as the leading White House figure at the meeting I think in hindsight it is very clear that Lloyd Bentsen's political instincts were the correct ones and Mr. Altman would have been far better served to have done it because this is the dilemma that he got himself into. And we go back now to Ms. Hanson's deposition. She talks about this how he announced he was going to recuse himself, how Mr. Nussbaum in her words got excited. And indeed Mr. Altman confirmed that last night in his testimony that Mr. Nussbaum was very excited. And then Ms. Hanson in her deposition, "the following morning Mr. Altman called me. He said he had spoken with Mr. McLarty the prior evening and Mr. McLarty had wanted to know what had taken place at the meeting. Mr. McLarty didn't attend the meeting. He also said that he had had a couple of other calls and that he had decided that he would not recuse himself for the time being. He said that he didn't believe that it made any difference to the outcome but that it made them happy," and "them" clearly is identified elsewhere as the White House.