August 2, 1994 - Part 11
August 2, 1994 - Part 11
(23:44:38)(tape #10075 begins) You said OK, I'll think about it, and you called him back the next day and said I won't recuse myself Mr. ALTMAN. I made clear that in the real world I was recused. Senator KERRY. The problem is--I hope you understand it. To me this is just the whole problem here and I'm not-you can't pros- ecute an intention and we're not prosecutors. We're trying to make a judgment about what may have motivated this, what was at play, what happened here. Now, I find it hard to understand how you could be persuaded by Nussbaum that your staying would satisfy his desire for steer- ing the case clear of politics if, number one, you yourself were a political appointee, an number two, you genuinely were not going to be involved in the case. Mr. ALTMAN. There is no evidence whatsoever, Senator, that that was how I was acting. Senator KERRY. Well, can I ask you a really hard question? Mr. ALTMAN. Sure. I guess that wouldn't be the first time today. Senator KERRY. Were you trying to have the best of two worlds by keeping the White House happy in a sense that they were going to feel that I someone was there that they could trust and there wouldn't be a runaway investigation but at the same time, keep all the people on the other side of the fence happy by saying I'm not going to have anything to do with it, Ms. Kulka, you go ahead? You kind of, in a sense, curried favor with both parties. Mr. ALTMAN. I don't think I left any doubt, Senator, and I don't think any of the attendees at the meeting have testified that I left any doubt, that this was Ms. Kulka's decision and whether I stayed there Senator KERRY. But you're not answering my question. Mr. ALTMAN. I think I did answer your question. Senator KERRY. I don't doubt you, Mr. Secretary. 525 Mr. ALTMAN. But you asked me, Senator, I think you asked, was I trying to keep them happy in the sense that my presence would somehow assure a more favorable decision? That was your question. Senator KERRY. That's what Bernie said. Bernie Nussbaum said Mr. ALTMAN. That may be what he said. Senator KERRY. --you remain as the head of the RTC this provides additional safeguards for professionalism and fairness because if people know they're reporting to somebody else and their judgments and fact- finding are going to be reviewed by that individual, I think they take greater care to be professional and fair rather than have the ultimate decision. Now, you say, Bernie, I'm not going to have anything to do with this. I accept that. I don't think you did have anything to do with it, but all this fuss is about why, notwithstanding that you decided not to recuse yourself immediately and stayed on. So it leads everybody, , all my colleagues across the aisle and everybody else, is sitting there saying why did he stay on. I'm sure that Ellen Kulka is saying-she did, she said why do you want to take the political hit. Jean Hanson said that. Secretary Bentsen said if it was me, I'd recuse myself. So I'm left saying why does a smart guy like Roger Altman who understands the game decide not to do this when be himself had decided to do it, now suddenly he's not. And the only thing I can conclude is that you were somehow trying to please a number of different folks. You were trying to please the White House by making them feel comfortable and simultaneously totally be at arm's distance from this event so that--I mean, I don't know any other reason why and I'm just asking you so I can make a judgment. Mr. ALTMAN. I said in my opening statement, Senator, I wavered. I found it a hard decision. Given the opportunity to do it again, I would have recused myself elf right at the outset, I should have. I should have, but I didn't engage in any improper conduct in that respect. I was undecided, or wavering. I don't want to leave any doubt about that. Senator KERRY. I haven't labeled it improper. I haven't suggested that but it clearly has created a political firestorm. It may not be improper, but maybe this is the bad judgment that Mr. Cutler was referring to. I don't know. I mean, it's why we're here, I guess. Mr. ALTMAN. What would go through your mind if you picked up the report of the Independent Office of Government Ethics and in fact, criticized you for having recused yourself and essen- tially supported Mr. Nussbaum's position, which is what they did? Senator KERRY. I'd rather be on the safe side of- Mr. ALTMAN. But I do. I think it illustrates this was-it wasn't an easy decision. Senator KERRY. Well, fair enough. You've given me your sense of it and I've had a chance to probe you and I appreciate your answer. My time is up and I thank you. Mr. ALTMAN. Mr. Chairman, could I ask for a break? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Let's take a brief break. Let me tell you where we are here, since we were through a situation somewhat like this last night. It's late in the evening, there are Members still 526 here that have questions that they want to ask and, you are get ting questions from both sides of the aisle. I think, if your strength is Sufficient, that it would be well to take the break and then stay on with this and try to finish up tonight, at whatever hour. I can predict that as I sit here and-this was the same thing that we faced last evening and we do have other witnesses coming tomorrow morning who are scheduled, who are important , who have things to say, and questions to answer. So my thought would be that we take another 10-minute break here and continue on. Senator SARBANES. Mr. Chairman, could we get a sense of how much questioning Members have? "I The CHAIRMAN. I think that's a very good suggestion. Senator DODD. I think we ought to point out tomorrow-we've been, here going on 7 hours. Mr. Altman will be a witness tomorrow In front of the House, I presume almost all day as well. And I don't know how much ground we want to plow over here, but some sense of decency about a human being going through all of this ought to be, at least, factored into the decision of how much more question. in we have to go through,