August 2, 1994 - Part 9
August 2, 1994 - Part 9
(21:45:27) Senator HATCH. That was my point. What did she say? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't recall her exact words. She said something to the effect that Senator HATCH. Testify generally. I don't care. Mr. ALTMAN. I just can't recall her exact words, but I wrote down what the inference of those words were as I thought of it. Senator HATCH. What's your best recollection of what she said and we'll draw our own inferences, then? Mr. ALTMAN. I really don't remember the exact words. I honestly don't. This was 6 months ago. Senator HATCH. Did she say anything similar to what you wrote there? Mr. ALTMAN. Well, I drew that inference and that's what I thought the words meant. Senator HATCH. See, I think you ought to stick with your diary rather than what Mr. Cutler says. certainly wasn't there. I mean, you you're re the person who was there. You drew the inference. I won't beat it to death but I just think it's an important part of this overall matter. Let me move on Senator SARBANES. Senator Hatch, I think we ought to go on. Senator HATCH. Maybe they'll come back to me. 493 Senator SARBANES. Well come back another round. Senator Murray. Senator MURRAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's always interesting to be last. Everybody ]has gone home. Everybody is bored. Everybody has moved on, but I've had the interesting perspective of sitting here and listening to all of this to and fro'ing for the last 51/2 hours and I have to ask myself, what really happened, and I kind of want to go through this. As my mother would say, were there any mortal sins? [Laughter.] There seems to be a real hangup here on whether you told Jean Hanson to inform the White House, or whether she assumed you had told her, or whether she went on her own. Nevertheless, she went to the White House to talk-and did talk to Nussbaum about criminal referrals. My understanding is that occurred at a meeting about Waco, and she just said that there would be press attention because the Clintons were named as possible witnesses; is that correct? Mr. ALTMAN. That's my understanding, Senator. Senator MURRAY. So Mr. Altman, how many organizations, independent or otherwise, have investigated this Hanson/Nussbaum discussion and determined it was not unethical? Mr. ALTMAN. Well, the Office of Government Ethics is the primary organization, I think, which has addressed itself to the ethical issues. Of course, there's been a legal investigation by Mr. Fiske, a very thorough one. There's also been Mr. Cutler's investigation and I know him to be a man of real independence, so I think one should take his conclusions as independent ones. Those three independent investigations have occurred. Senator MURRAY. And they all said there were no unethical discussions that occurred, Mr. ALTMAN. Mr. Fiske addressed himself to the legal issues, and I believe Mr. Cutler and the Office of Government Ethics addressed themselves to the ethical issues. Senator MURRAY. So it doesn't really matter whether you told her to go or whether she went on her own, because there was nothing unethical discussed Mr. ALTMAN. I agree with that. Senator MURRAY. OK We also seem to be hung up on how many contacts you had with the White House on Madison, and you responded at our Committee hearing on February 24, that you had one substantive contact, and it seemed to me when I was watching-the tape that Senator Gramm interrupted you, as you said "one contact." Were you going to add anything else? Mr. ALTMAN. No. I was going to describe the one contact I had, which I thought related to the RTC's investigation of Madison. I 'know there's a great debate about it and I know people disagree With me, but I believe today that I only had one contact that relates to the RTC investigation of Madison. Senator MURRAY. I heard Senator Gramm say earlietacts Do you have an idea what those 40 contacts were? any Mr. ALTMAN. I can't recite it from memory but I believe Mr. Cut- ler's chronology details most, or all, of those. 494 Senator MURRAY. Were some of them unreturned phone calls? Would those be considered a contact? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't know, Senator. Senator MURRAY. Well, you nevertheless answered the question it seems to me, in terms of substantive contacts. We now know that' there was somewhere between I and 40 depending on who you listened to. Re Regardless, 1 or 40, substantive or nonsubstantive, 1 think the real question is; Was there any information given to the White House that the public didn't have or would not have very soon? Mr. ALTMAN. The Office of Government Ethics addressed itself to that and it concluded that no nonpublic information was imparted. That may have been their conclusion about my meeting. I 'm not sure. But as you know, no ethical re gulations were violated, so in regard to my meeting, they conclude that no nonpublic information was conveyed. As an overall point, they concluded that no ethical regulations had been violated. Senator MURRAY. Essentially, it doesn't matter bow many contacts there were. There was no information imparted in any of those that shouldn't have been imparted? Mr. ALTMAN. That was the conclusion of the Office of Government Ethics. Senator MURRAY. Did the White House use any information from an of those contacts, whether it was one or 40, substantive or not, did they