August 2, 1994 - Part 9
August 2, 1994 - Part 9
(21:40:29) Senator HATCH. And according to--I don't know that Mr. Cutler can say it did or didn't. You're the only one who can. I don't know that he was even there, Mr. ALTMAN. No, I can't say it did or didn't either. I'm just saying that I drew that inference. I have no independent knowledge if, indeed, there were negotiations of that type. I've been told there were not. Senator HATCH. But, still you put the inference in your diary and Lot trying as I understand your testimony in your deposition-I'm not tring to give 0 a rough time I want to get this straightened out. You testified that you put things in your diary that you considered of historical significance. Mr. ALTMAN. To me. Senator HATCH, To you. Well, I think that's pretty good. And you previously testified that you would not put anything in your diary which you believed to be false; right? Mr. ALTMAN. Sure. I didn't intentionally write down anything false. 491 Senator HATCH. You understood at the time the question of whether a Special Counsel would be named was really a front-page story. Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, Senator, I did, Senator HATCH. In fact, you called it "the front-page story" in your deposition. Mr. ALTMAN. Whitewater was, Yes. Senator HATCH. But the question of Special Counsel. And you testified in your deposition that you had already been aware of the First Lady's displeasure with having an Independent Counsel named at all or appointed; right? Mr. ALTMAN. Well, the First Lady has said herself that she was reluctant to see that step taken. She's been very open about that, Senator HATCH. She has. Moving ahead a bit, there came a time on February 4, 1994, when Ms. Hanson made you aware, at least she said she did, that Bernard Nussbaum thought that the Independent Counsel charter could be read to give RTCs civil jurisdiction to Mr. Fiske. Were you aware of that? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't recall that but it may have happened. Senator HATCH. She said she did make you aware of that. Mr. ALTMAN. She may have. Senator HATCH. So you were made aware that the Independent Counsel charter provided Mr. Fiske or, at least, you knew that it provided him jurisdiction over the civil RTC cases as well. Mr. ALTMAN. Well, I believe Ms. Kulka testified, or at some point testified, that wasn't the case. And that in her view it couldn't be ,conveyed to the Independent Counsel. I believe she did. Senator HATCH. Why did you draw that inference? What did she say or do? Mr. ALTMAN. I was responding to your question about Ms. Han',son perhaps telling me on February 4, that it might be possible to convey the RTC's responsibilities to the Independent Counsel, and believe Ms. Kulka has since testified, or at some point, that in deed wasn't true, that they couldn't be conveyed. I had no inde- pendent knowledge of it, Senator. I'm not a lawyer. Senaotr HATCH. Sure. But nevertheless, you weren't unaware as head of RTC that the Independent Counsel would have, as well as criminal jurisdiction, civil jurisdiction in these matters as well? I you surely understood that? ALTMAN. I don't think I understood that the RTC could hand its civil responsibilities to the Independent Counsel. No, I wasn't aware. Senator HATCH. Let me move ahead to February 25, 1994, when You had decided not to recuse yourself and receive the telephone from Mr. Stephanopoulos and Mr. Ickes, They were both upset how you handled the recusal; right? ALTMAN. Yes, sir, about the manner in which they were noti- Senator HATCH. And they were upset in addition about the Stehiring. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator. HATCH. We've heard testimony that soon thereafter, Mr. Steiner suggested to Jean Hanson the General Counsel, that the 492 RTC civil case against Madison be turned over to Independent Counsel. Had you ever heard of Mr. Steiner's suggestion before? Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir. Senator HATCH. That was "no, sir"'? Mr. ALTMAN, No, sir. Senator HATCH. Did Mr. Steiner tell you of his statement to Ms. Hanson? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe he did, sir. Senator HATCH. Did you ever discuss with Mr, Steiner the issue of Fiske having RTC civil jurisdiction? issue Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe I did, sir. Senator HATCH. Well, again, we get back to the day before the President requested.that a Special Counsel be named, that you made this notation in your diary, which you must have thought was of historical significance. "Maggie's strong inference was"-you have a quote there, that "the White House was trying to negotiate the scope of an Independent Counsel with Reno and having enormous difficulty." How did you draw that inference and what did she do to cause you to draw that inference? Mr. ALTMAN. First of all, Senator, if I understand your question, and maybe I don't, I don't think that is related to the other question you asked me about the Steiner/Hanson conversation on convening the civil Senator HATCH. It's not. I'm just asking you Mr. ALTMAN. I drew that inference. which as I say is apparently now incorrect, from something that Ms. Williams said to me. Senator HATCH. What did she say to you that--how could you have drawn the inference? What did she say that would cause you to draw the inference and why should you withdraw it now just because Mr. Cutler says that it's wrong? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I'm not withdrawing it, I wrote it and that was the inference that I drew.