August 2, 1994 - Part 7
August 2, 1994 - Part 7
(19:35:36) Mr. ALTMAN. Senator Kerry, if I could suggest and you may not agree with me, but I think the salient points here are nothing unethical occurred. We've had an independent report from the Mee of Government Ethics, nothing to do with the Clinton Administration, happens to be headed by a gentleman who was, appointed by President Bush, who's looked into every aspect of this. Nothing unethical occurred. Senator KERRY. Well, let me say, I've always had great respect for you and I'm not here to do anything except try to find out what happened. I want to know. I haven't made a judgment. You haven't been tried and found guilty as far as I'm concerned and, I think, most of my colleagues. But I don't agree that it is simply a question of whether or not those findings by the ethics officers are all there is to it. I do agree, in your defense, that they have legitimately determined no laws or ethics standards were violated. I think, unfortunately, theirs is almost exclusively a legal standard. And we're really talking about a standard that goes beyond just the letter of the law, if you will. We're trying to question judgment here. I mean, Mr. Cutler, in his wisdom and eloquence, has suggested bad judgment was, indeed, exercised to a certain degree. I'm trying to understand whether or not-I see my time is up. I never even got to the second area I want to get to, which is critical to this question of judgment, but it seems to me that there is a legitimate question here as to whether the judgment was right. You said in your opening, last question, you've made mistakes and perhaps there was some bad judgment. Could you tell the Committee what you deem to be either the mistakes that you were referring to or the bad judgment that you would say was exercised? Mr. ALTMAN. Let me step back, if I can, a moment. I'm not an ethics expert, but I don't quite agree with our characterization. Recently for obvious reasons, I have look through the ethical codes. Again, I haven't read every word of them or anything like that, but I think they set a very high standard. I think a conclusion from the Office of Government Ethics that there's been no ethical violation, is actually a very high bar that was crossed, not a low bar. This isn't the issue of legalities, this is the issue of ethics. As I read through the ethical codes they struck me as quite strict. I think it's quite something that the Office of Government Ethics concluded there was no ethical violation. After all, we have a situation here where nothing illegal was done, nothing unethical was done. Now, as to judgments, in retrospect, I think the February 2 meeting shouldn't have happened, and it should have been-that 459 information should have been communicated in writing. So that wasn't a great judgment. When I look back on my February 24 testimony, I wish I bad interpreted the questions a little bit differently than I did and then I would have given better answers. There was no intent to conceal the information. But I wish I had testified and put forth some additional information here because then people wouldn't think that perhaps I did intend to withhold it, but I didn't. So sure, there was some mistakes of that type and I could go on. There were other mistakes, but there was nothing unethical and nothing illegal. The CHAIRMAN. Let me say-excuse me. I'm sorry, Mr. Altman. Mr. ALTMAN. Well, I think we're all human, we all make mistakes. These sure aren't the first ones I've made, and I'm afraid they won't be the last ones. Senator KERRY. We absolutely do. I want to follow up with this a little later and I think it's very important to try to draw the record out on this. The CHAIRMAN. We will do so, Senator Kerry. I think you are raising a very important line of inquiry and the second issue you wanted to raise, we will make sure is raised. Senator Bennett. Senator BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Altman, you testified that you called Mr. Ickes on what date? Mr. ALTMAN. I believe it was February 3 or it might have been February 4, a day or two after the meeting. Senator BENNETT. A day or two after the February 2 meeting. Senator Gramm's indication was that you talked to Maggie Williams, you said and you called Mr. Ickes and the testimony was you were trying to set up a meeting in the White House; is that correct? Mr. ALTMAN. I called Mr. Ickes to say that I'd like to have a brief conversation with him. He and I were on our way, or were going to be later that day, to the same meeting, which I think was a Health Care meeting, but I'm not certain and I wanted to talk to him a moment or two before the meeting, and we did. Senator BENNETT. And you have no way of knowing how Maggie Williams got it in your bead that you were talking to her?