August 2, 1994 - Part 7
August 2, 1994 - Part 7
(19:30:37) Now, when you say 'about it,' what did you tell him about? I told him it looked like the criminal referrals were going to become public because one of our investigators had sent an E-mail saying Sue Schmidt was in Little Rock asking a lot of questions about the criminal referral. Question: Did Ms. Hanson add anything to the conversation? Answer: Not that I recall. Then you jump down a little bit. Question: At the conclusion of the conversation, was it discussed as to what should be done? Answer: By Mr. Roelle, yes, Question: About the information you had given to Mr, Altman? Answer: Yes. He told her to call a whole bunch of people. 1-7 Question: Do you recall who he, Mr. Altman, "told-her," Ms. Hanson, "to call"? Answer: Yeah. He said call Jack, Bernie, the Secretary. He named about 10 names, first names, most of whom I don't know and, obviously, the secretary, I assume was the Secretary of Treasury, but he rattled off a bunch of names for her to call and that was the end of the conversation. He then says he understood Let me read later on page 67. Question: How much later did it occur to you that's who Bernie may be-and the name Bernie, did you understand that to be Bernie Nussbaum? Answer: Not at the time. Later it occurred to me. 457 Question: How much later did it occur to you? Answer: I don't know; probably 3 or 4 days later. I was at home and I saw Bernie Nussbaum on television about some different subject all together and I looked over at ray wife and I said jeez, I hope Mr.-I hope when Altman said Bernie, it wasn't this Bernie. And that was the end of it. That was Mr. Roelle's testimony under oath, that you directed Ms. Hanson to call the White House on October 6. Do you remember that? Mr. ALTMAN. No, Senator I don't remember that. Senator KERRY. No memory of that? Mr. ALTMAN. I think it is clear that that is an awfully brief conversation; it occurred 5 or 6 months before I testified here on February 24. 1 don't recall it. Senator KERRY. Do you recall it now? Does this refresh your recollection? Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir, it doesn't. Senator KERRY. It doesn't refresh our recollection Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir. I don't recall having that conversation. Senator KERRY. You have no memory of him telling you that the criminal referrals were about to bit? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, as I think I testified earlier, that sometime in the fall, Mr. Roelle or Ms. Hanson advised me of an impending press leak so at some point Mr. Roelle did advise me of that, I believe. It might have been Ms. Hanson but I think Senator KERRY. I want to get to this. You just have no memory of it. I really want to try to establish it because the Committee is obviously going to have to sit down and we're ping to balance between that. I want to be sure you're given an adequate opportunity to refresh your recollection or simply find that you don't have one. I don't know. Mr. ALTMAN. First of all, Mr. Roelle did advise me, at some point in the fall, that the criminal referrals were in the works. We had the conversation, which I related, in terns of how to handle the case at arm's length, impartial, at the regional office, and so on. I don't happen to recall this conversation. I'm doing my best to plumb my memory. Senator KERRY. Can I ask you this: Is it really believable for this Committee? We've all been around this place a little bit. So have you. It's very bard to believe that the Counsel to the Treasury is going to wind up at the White House at a meeting to discuss anything at all without you, or the Secretary, or somebody directing her to go. Mr. ALTMAN. Senator Kerry, this conversation occurred in October, I believe; is that right? Ms. Hanson had two meetings at the White House, I think, September and October. I was asked a lot of questions about the September meeting, and as I said, I don't recall asking her to do that, and I think I would have remembered if I had. Nobody has suggested that the October meeting occurred at my direction. No one has suggested that. Senator KERRY. I'm not suggesting it I'm merely asking you- In that is not my implication here but, the key, there's a really central Issue here about a young attorney working as counsel who says she was sent over there. Mr. Roelle, who says you directed her to call. Another person who says they remember-Maggie Williams, and YOU have no memory of any of these 3 contacts. 458 Mr. ALTMAN. No, that's not true, Senator The only difference I have with Senator Gramm is not whether the conversation oc- curred. The conversation lie asked me about did occur. It absolutely did occur. l. I just happen to think I had it with Mr. Ickes and I called Mr. Ickes, and Ms. Williams thinks I had it with her. But there's no dispute about the essence of it, I agree. Here I already said I had a conversation with Mr. Roelle about the criminal referral I don't happen to recall this brief conversation. Senator KERRY. I want to come back to this later in the time,, sort of feeds us problems here, but I will come back to it.