August 2, 1994 - Part 7
August 2, 1994 - Part 7
(19:25:30) I agree with her on the essence of the conversation. I just believe I called Mr. Ickes and she believes I called her. People's recollections can differ. There'snothing unusual about that. Yes, there was the discussion, Senator GRAMM. You didn't recall this at all when you testified on February 24. You didn't recall this meeting at all. The CHAIRMAN. I think we can't continue the exchange here and stay within our time periods and we had another opportunity to do this but you've had a chance to put your statement on the record. Senator Kerry. Senator KERRY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me review in my own mind maybe by way of helping myself if I think out loud a little bit. I think folks might be wondering Core we're going and where we are. I think we're reduced to a couple of questions here in front of the Committee. What's important is not only what we're trying to find out at this point about these two areas of concern, but also what we've already found out. Specifically, many of the earlier allegations and assumptions about Whitewater and the White House in this effort are not being borne out by the evidence. There's no evidence whatsoever by anybody in any statement that we're now referring to that the President of the United States or Mrs. Clinton somehow tried to affect the outcome of this investigation. In fact, to the contrary, the only evidence in front of us is from Ms. Kulka and Mr. Ryan that the investigation intensified. We know that the President, in fact, signed a statute of limitations, against his own interest, to continue the investigation. We know that there is no evidence whatsoever of the White House specifically interfering with the investigation. We're really reduced to two issues in front of this Committee, fundamentally two issues. One is Mr. Altman's testimony and the question of whether or not we find there was reason to believe the testimony wasn't accurate. And no. 2, 1 think this is a very impor- tant area whether-the whole recusal issues, the contacts with the White House. What was the impact of those contacts in the White House? We know that they didn't affect the investigation per se. Some try to allege that because the private attorney, Mr. Kendall, had knowledge and could give it to the President. But because the President signed the statute of limitations, whatever knowledge he had was rendered totally moot. The knowledge, if any, didn't affect it, so again we come back, no impact on the investigation. 456 So the issue is really was there an intent? Was there in the lack of recusal, was there in the meetings, was there in this back-and-forth something improper, notwithstanding the findings of the Committee of the various investigations on ethics, et cetera? I want to try to explore those two areas, which I think are the center of focus and concern and which are considerably different from what many had alleged, I might add. Now, let me just try to clarify this, if I can, Mr. Secretary'. Did you task, or did you ask, or did you instruct, or give any form of order or direction. to Ms. Hanson with respect to contacts with the White House? Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I do not recall asking Ms. Hanson to go to the White House in connection with the September meeting. Senator KERRY. To call the White House, to telephone the White House, to inform the White House. Mr. ALTMAN. Is your question in relation to Madison Guaranty or any other Senator KERRY. With respect to any aspect of the Rose Law Firm, Madison Guaranty or Whitewater. Mr. ALTMAN. I don't believe so, but if we can agree Whitewater is a land deal in Arkansas. I don't know anything about that and I don't think Ms. Hanson does either. So the issue here I think is Madison Guaranty, and I believe the answer is I don't think so. I don't think I did. Senator KERRY. Let me ask you, if you could take a look-could we have the Roelle deposition delivered to the witness? I'd ask you to take a look at this deposition, page 65, where Mr. Roelle is testi- fying that he was having a meeting with you on October 6, and this is a sworn deposition under oath to the Committee, and he says: "It was just me and Mr. Altman, and he called Ms. Hanson on the phone." He also says, "To the best of your memory who said what to whom during this conversation. I just told him about it and he said OK and he called Ms. Hanson and told her about it."