August 2, 1994 - Part 7
August 2, 1994 - Part 7
(19:20:52) Mr. ALTMAN. No, sir, I don't believe I did. My testimony is Senator GRAMM. She said this under oath. Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, my testimony is I called Mr. Ickes, and I 'had a brief conversation with Mr. Ickes. I don't recall Ms. Williams being there. I'm sorry, but I don't. Senator GRAMM. She is talking about the February 3 meeting. She says you called her and that you said to be ' decided to recuse and that she ought to get some people together be- 454 cause you wanted to come over to the White House and tell them. Why the Chief of Staff of the First Lady? Was that the source of the political pressure? Was that the intense pressure? Was that the source of the statement that it was unacceptable? I think people want to know why you would call the Chief of Staff of the First Lady to get a meeting together so you could go back to the White House, one day after you bad said you wanted to recuse yourself and they had asked you to reconsider it. I think people would want to know why the First Lady's Chief of Staff. Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, I'd like to make two points. Senator GRAMM. I have Hanson's corroborating statement, Senator SASSER. Mr. Chairman, I think this witness ought to be extended the courtesy of the Senate and allow him to finish his an. swers. Senator SARBANES. I agree-let me just rule on that. Certainly he'll be entitled to answer. If Senator Gramm can finish the question and then we'll let Mr. Altman respond. Senator GRAMM. The only point I want to make is that we not only have the sworn statement from Maggie Williams, but we have corroboration from a sworn statement by Jean Hanson about the meeting. Now I'd be happy to listen. Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, my testimony is I called Mr. Ickes. He and I were going to be attending the same meeting together, I believe it was a Health Care meeting but I'm not sure. I'd like to speak to him a moment or two before the meeting. I did speak to him a moment or two before the meeting and I said that I was not going to recuse myself for the time being. That is what happened. Senator GRAMM. That was the meeting on the 2nd. This is the 3rd, the 3rd of February that I am referring to. Mr. ALTMAN. No, no, no, Senator. I'm referring to the 3rd of February or whatever the date is of that second communication. If I might also add, Senator Gramm Senator SARBANES. Let Mr. Altman finish. Mr. ALTMAN. If I might also add, you referred to this concept of unacceptable. I think you have testimony under oath from each of the participants in the meeting. I don't believe that any of the participants in that meeting said I was told the recusal was unacceptable. I was not told that. I was not told not to recuse myself I wasn't told please don't do it. I wasn't told anything of that ilk. Senator GRAMM. I'll come back to this on my time, but here's the point. Maggie Williams says under oath that you called her and asked for the meeting. You're now in disagreement not just with what Ms. Hanson says under oath and with what Mr. Roelle says under oath, but now you're in disagreement with what Ms. Williams says under oath . And I'm not the person using the terms - unacceptable" or "intense." This is a Yale and Oxford graduate who is schooled in rhetoric, writing from the heart in his own private journal, and you would have us believe that from the heart he is questionable. But when you were before us, with real questions about whether you have lied to Congress, you assert that you are more credible than this young man's heart? Totally unbelievable. Mr. ALTMAN. First of all, Senator Gramm, I did not lie to Congress. Second of all Senator GRAMM. Hanson, Roelle, and Williams lied to Congress? 455 Senator BOXER. Mr. Chairman, I think this witness is really being treated badly by Senator Gramm. en Senator GRAMM. You've been very liberal and I yield- The CHAIRMAN. I think Mr. Altman ought to be allowed to re- spond fully to this line of questioning and then we'll go to Senator Kerry who is next, Mr. ALTMAN. I'd like to respond in the best way I can to Senator Gramm. Senator, there was a discussion on the date of February 3 or approximately that date, yes, there was and the discussion did consist of my saying that I wasn't going to recuse myself self for the time being. Those are facts. I recall that I called Mr. Ickes and that my discussion was with Mr. Ickes. Ms. Williams apparently recalls it differently.