August 2, 1994 - Part 3
August 2, 1994 - Part 3
(13:00:41) Senator MURRAY. So you learned everything from a reporter? Mr. DEVORE. No. I can't recall who at the October 14 meeting told me that, in fact, while the reporter had called me on October 11, the criminal referral had been made on October 8, so someone, either at that meeting or shortly before that meeting told me that a criminal referral bad been made on October 8. Senator MURRAY. But you bad not seen the criminal referrals? Mr. DEVORE. I have not to this day seen the criminal referrals. Senator MURRAY. But you learned about them from a reporter who called you. That's where you first heard about it? Mr. DEVORE. About the investigation, yes. Senator MURRAY. Is it your experience as a Press Secretary, that if a reporter calls from a major newspaper with information, that that information is public or about to become public? Mr. DEVORE. It's my experience and my strong belief that by definition, once a reporter obtains information, it ceases being nonpublic. It ceases being confidential. Senator MURRAY. Have you ever received nonpublic confidential information from the RTC? Mr. DEVORE. No. Senator MURRAY. Thank you. Mr. Steiner, in your deposition, you told this Committee that you wrote impressionistically. Can you tell us what you meant by that? Mr. STEINER. Well, often, Senator, I would write about meetings that I did, not, in fact, attend based on conversations of one of the participants, as opposed to all of them or perhaps even third-hand from people who had not even attended the meetings. Senator MURRAY. So you don't record your thoughts accurately, you just record your impressions of what you thought occurred? Mr. STEINER. I made no effort not to be accurate, Senator, but I want to be clear, I was not attempting to be precise or construct an exact narrative. Senator MURRAY. You had a conversation with George Stephanopoulos earlier in February about the recusal issue; is that correct? Mr. STEINER. It was on or around February 16, Senator. Senator MURRAY. Did be tell you that Roger Altman ought to go ahead and recuse himself? Did be think that was the proper course of action? Mr. STEINER. He said that be thought it was Mr. Altman's decision to make, but that he thought it was wiser for Mr. Altman to recuse himself Senator MURRAY. He thought it was wiser for Mr. Altman to recuse himself Was that what he told you? Mr. STEINER. Those aren't the precise words that he used but ,bat was the content of the message. 368 Senator MURRAY. You did not record that conversation in your diary? Mr. STEINER, No, I did not. Senator MURRAY. Do you know why you didn't? Mr. STEINER. Well, this document doesn't capture every conversation that I had because it wasn't intended to be an exact chro- nology of events that occur- red. Senator MURRAY. Mr. Foreman, did you ever discuss the issue of Roger Altman's recusal with anyone at the White House? Mr. FOREMAN. Yes, Senator. As I mentioned in my opening statement, I had 2 or 3 brief conversations with Beth Nolan, the Senior Ethics Officer in the White House Counsel's Office. Senator MURRAY. With Beth Nolan. Is she respected in the ethics field? Mr. FOREMAN. Very much. exactly did you discuss with her? Senator MURRAY. What Mr. FOREMAN. I informed her about the procedures relating to the framework of the civil claims involving Madison, that I hag no personal knowledge of any of the substance of the civil claims, that I was only talking to her in terms of informing her that we were going to be doing a legal analysis on the recusal, that we had received a letter from Congressman Leach asking us to look at the recusal issue, and that we were going to start working with the Office of Government Ethics and the Resolution Trust Corporation ethics officers to consider that recusal issue. Senator MURRAY. Did she offer an opinion as to whether or not he should recuse himself? Mr. FOREMAN. No, she did not. Senator MURRAY, Let me ask you this: What was your opinion? Should Mr. Altman have recused himself? You're an Ethics Officer. Mr. FOREMAN. The first time that I beard the question to me, my first reaction was he should recuse himself before I did the legal analysis as to whether or not he needed to or had to by law. Senator MURRAY. So were there ethical or legal reasons that he should recuse himself that you knew of? Mr. FOREMAN. In the end 7 it became a discretionary judgment for him because there was no ethics regulatory requirement, as we decided with OGE, that he must recuse himself Therefore, it becomes a matter of discretion, and my view was be should recuse himself. Senator MURRAY. Well, I've heard some people suggest that there are those in the White House who were pressuring Roger Altman not to recuse himself because Altman might give Madison Guaranty some kind of special treatment. Have you ever seen or heard an evidence that would give that theory any credence?