August 2, 1994 - Part 1
August 2, 1994 - Part 1
(10:20:30) Mr. DEVORE. He asked if I could be of assistance to him, He expressed some sympathy to me. He was aware that I wasn't long for the Federal Government, that I was retiring within 2 weeks. And in the course of our conversation, he became aware that I bad recently buried my father, He was apologetic, but, yes, be wanted to see if I could find out anything that would be helpful to him in his efforts to write a story. Senator DODD. I see my time is up, The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Dodd. Senator Gramm. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR PHIL GRAMM Senator GRAMM. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Foreman, you're the Chief Ethics Officer of the Treasury Department, is that right? Mr. FOREMAN. Yes, sir. Senator GRAMM. Did Ms. Hanson ever ask you to give her your opinion on the ethics of calling Mr. Nussbaum and telling him that the President was referred to in at least I of 9 criminal charges that were being forwarded from the RTC to the Justice Department? Mr. FOREMAN. No, Senator, she did not, Senator GRAMM. I'm now asking you to try to put on your hat as an ethics officer. I tried in vain, yesterday, to et Ms. Hanson to give me her ethics judgment. I think one of the things we're trying to do here is determine what are the parameters that you have set for yourselves at the Treasury Department, at the White House, and at the RTC on how you deal with ethics and where this very fine line is. In your opinion, is a potential press leak, which has appeared nowhere in print or on the electronic media, but one that you bear may occur, is that justification for notifying, directly or indirectly, a person who is referred to in a criminal referral? Would that be a breach of ethics to you if someone did that? Mr. FOREMAN. Senator, that would have to be analyzed on the question of legitimate Government purpose. I'm trying to deal directly, as you phrase it, because my knowledge of the actual events last fall are very limited and sketchy, and I've heard a number of things in the last few days. But the way that you phrase it, the 334 question first is: Is the information nonpublic or not? I've heard a lot of testimony about that. Senator GRAMM. Mr. Foreman, let me stop. I've been down this road 4 or 5 times. Let me go back and express it, so we can conserve time. Mr. FOREMAN. Yes, sir. Senator GRAMM. Ms. Hanson was notified by the RTC that there were 9 criminal referrals coming "in to Washington, and that at least or 1 of them mentioned the President . She was also notified that there might be a press leak when this information got to Washing- ton. That basically is her statement. As the Ethics Officer of the Treasury, in your opinion, was it a violation of ethics at the Treasury for her to inform Mr. Nussbaum of these criminal referrals that made reference to the President, in light of the statement that there might be a press leak, even though nothing had appeared in the media? What I'm trying to get at is, is it a justification to notify someone who is referred to in a criminal referral, which is confidential information, is it a justification to notify them because it might be leaked, in your opinion, with your bat on as the Chief Ethics Officer of the Treasury? I? Mr.FOREMAN. I can only say that I heard you say that for her to notify Mr. Nussbaum in those circumstances, then you followed that by saying the person, -themselves. Senator GRAMM. He is counsel to the person who is referred to. Mr. FOREMAN. He's the White House Counsel, and in those terms, my answer is, yes, sir, that would be, in my view, ethically OK for her to notify Mr. Nussbaum in the circumstances that you set forth on a possible press leak about something that might involve the President or the Presidency. Senator GRAMM. Even on a criminal referral that makes reference to the President, something that under no other circumstances would be appropriate, in fact, it would be illegal, as I understand it, but in this case, because it might appear in the media in the future, it is OK to pass the information on to him? Mr. FOREMAN. Sir, this has been-in my view, the Office of Government Ethics' analysis is an accurate one. They looked for a legitimate Government purpose to do this, and they found it in a situation related to the possible press leaks, and I agree with OGE's analysis in that situation. Senator GRAMM. What about the other 8 referrals that didn't refer to the President?