August 1, 1994 - Part 9
August 1, 1994 - Part 9
(22:55:32) Mr. Nussbaum is an advocate and he advocated his position, but the final decision was Mr. Altman's. When Mr. Altman called me on February 3, 1994, and said that he had decided not to recuse himself, for the time being, and that he thought it didn't make any difference to the outcome, but it made them happy, I agreed with him. I didn't believe it made any difference to the outcome either, because Ms. Kulka was 190 in charge of the investigation, she was going to make the recommendation, and I believed that he would follow it. Senator BENNETT. I shan't prolong- this because, as I say, it's really an issue to discuss with Mr. Altman, but I wanted to give you the opportunity to talk on it. I will make the comment that I think Mr. Nussbaum is on thin ice here, to be leaning on a man who has walked in and said, "I plan to recuse myself, my General Counsel has told me to recuse myself, my immediate superior, who is a Cabinet-level officer, has agreed that I should recuse myself"for a member of the White House staff to say, "No, you should stay where you are, because I want a fair result, is, in my view, an improper thing for a member of the White House staff to do, but that is something I will pursue with Mr. Altman. Ms. HANSON. Just to be clear, I have no recollection of Mr. Nussbaum telling Mr. Altman he had to do one thing, as opposed to another. He expressed his views and Senator BENNETT. He apparently got excited. Ms. HANSON. He's an excitable person. The CHAIRMAN. It sounds to me like-if I may, a while back I said I was going to take a minute here-he certainly got his point across. By all the testimony we have, Mr. Altman went in prepared to recuse himself. He got turned around, came out, and decided not to recuse himself. I want to ask you this. Do you know when the moment came when he made the decision to recuse himself and to whom he said that? Ms. HANSON. I don't recall the exact moment. The CHAIRMAN. I've read-and I don't know whether it's true or not, so I'm asking if you can confirm it-the story that he made the decision or announced the decision, in a discussion with somebody on the editorial board of The New York Times. Do you know whether that's true or not? Ms. HANsON. I don't know, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You've not heard that? Ms. HANSON. I have heard that, but I don't know whether it's true. The CHAIRMAN. But you don't know when the-when did you hear about the decision? Ms. HANSON. The final decision to, actually, recuse himself? Mr. Altman's decision to finally recuse himself, was after the hearing on-the day after the hearing, on February 25, 1994. Let me make sure that we're clear. He had made--he had decided to recuse himself on February 1, 1994. He, actually, recused himself on February 25,1994. The CHAIRMAN. You don't know the circumstances under which that was done, beyond what you've just said? Ms. HANSON. No, I don't. The CHAiRmAN. I have time remaining, Senator Sarbanes, you wanted Senator SARBANES. I just have one or two brief questions I want to put to Ms. Hanson. Just today, Deputy Secretary Altman appeared in an interview with Bernard Shaw on CNN. Mr. Shaw asked him, "Mr. Secretary, the General Counsel of the Treasury Department, Jean Hanson, says that she went to the White House and briefed White House 191 Counsel, Bernard Nussbaum, in September. She says you, her boss told her to do it." Mr. Altman answered, "Well, as you know, I have a different recollection of that. I don't think there is anything un- usual about that." Mr. Shaw asked, "You did not tell her to do it? Mr. Altman answered, "I don't think there is anything unusual about that. The events in question occurred 5 months before the testimony. So having different recollections, I don't think, it is very surprising. So Mr. Altman, even today, holds the position that he did not tell you to go to see Mr. Nussbaum. The reason I put this question to you, is that Mr. Altman's version is consistent with the questions and answers-the draft questions and answers which you put into your computer on, I think, March 1, 1994, as I recall, which said: