August 1, 1994 - Part 4
August 1, 1994 - Part 4
(15:05:38) Senator DOMENICI. Let me just ask, Mr. Ryan and Ms. Kulka, there's another premise in securities trading that says insider trading is illegal, even if no money is made. Are you familiar with that? Would that sound right in terms of your understanding of insider trading? ? Ms. KULKA. It doesn't exactly comport with my understanding. Senator DOMENICI. Mr. Ryan? Mr. RYAN. I don't know. Senator DOMENICI. Let me just ask, then, in closing, YOU really have no way of knowing where this insider information has ended up today, do you? Mr. RYAN. That's correct. Senator DOMENICI, Ms. Kulka, do you know where it has ended up? Ms. KULKA. I don't know what it is. I therefore don't know Senator DOMENICI. Any of the insider information we've been discussing here, about the statute of limitations on the criminal refer 81 ral cases and the fact that the case wasn't ready, we don't know who said what to whom after that was divulged to a number of people in the White House, do we? Do you know? Ms. KULKA. No, sir, but I also know that the statute of limitations was discussed in correspondence we exchange with Members of Congress and I deny that we would not be ready. I thought we would try to be ready, and we could be ready to file if we had competent evidence underlying it. Senator DOMENICI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAiRmAN. Senator Kerry. Senator KERRY. Mr. Chairman, I would say to my friend from New Mexico, one thing we do know in terms of where it ended up, is that massive amounts of information deemed to be confidential has appeared in the Congressional Record thanks to Congressman Leach who published an enormous amount of it there. There are lots of questions about who knew what, when, and how it got there. I think the key issue before this Committee, and the Senator from New Mexico has touched on it, is the question of whether or not, regardless of whether there was an impact directly on the investigation, some improper judgment and actions may have taken place. The evidence, thus far, appears to be establishing that there was no impact on the case. In fact, to the contrary. &at doesn't exonerate whatever actions or lack of actions might have been taken by somebody and the judgments that attache to those judgments or lack of them, with respect to whether that was good judgment or bad judgment or improper behavior or proper behavior. The Committee is still going to have to make that judgment and obviously can't do so until we've heard from Ms. Hanson or Mr. Altman but those are real questions for us. There's also the question of whether I think you're helping to set the stage for our ability to understand their testimony better. I just want to put that in the context here. Senator DOMENICI. Would the Senator yield on that, just for an observation? Senator KERRY. I've waited 31/2 hours for a second round. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Kerry does not wish to yield at this point, but we'll find a chance to give you the time you need. Senator DOMENIci. Fine. Senator KERRY. I'll be happy to have the colloquy off time if we can. I just want to try to understand a little better what the choice for the Committee is. It was your testimony that in no way did Roger Altman or Jean Hanson impact the course of this case. Is that accurate, Mr. Ryan? Mr. RYAN. I think that's accurate. Yes, sir. Senator KERRY. Ms. Kulka? Ms. KULKA. That's correct. Senator KERRY. Mr. Roelle? Mr. ROELLE. That's correct, sir. Senator KERRY. No positive action that they took, no judgment or directive that they issued, impacted your decisionmaking or your judgment with respect to the investigation of Madison/Whitewater. that correct? Ms. KULKA. That's correct. Mr. RYAN. Correct, 82 Mr. ROELLE. Correct. Senator KERRY. And, indeed, you said earlier that the White House also never impacted you. Ms. KuLKA. That's correct. Mr. RYAN. Correct. Senator KERRY. So the only issue reverting to this Committee',", least on the evidence, you can conjecture, you can surmise, you can fantasize, but on the evidence that's in front of this Committee, we simply know that Roger Altman and Ms. Hanson took certain actions to communicate with the White House but had no impact on the case. We have to make a judgment about the appropriateness of those actions. I'd like to just examine that one step further. Clearly, some people wanted Mr. Altman to not recuse himself, And, clearly, Mr. Altman himself was torn, so something was going on in his head about why he might or might not have stayed on this case. My question to you is, was that presence in any way a chilling effect on the agency, on you individually, or on anyone in, investigating it, Ms. Kulka?