August 1, 1994 - Part 3
August 1, 1994 - Part 3
(13:30:04)(Tape #10058 begins) Senator Sarbanes. I guess I want to ask Mr. Ryan and Ms. Kulka this question, Of course, we're looking very carefully into these discussions and contacts that took place, and we'll be examining other witnesses that will come before us this week with respect to those matters. I'm interested to know from you, though, as the Acting Director of the RTC and the General Counsel, if any of the referrals involving Madison are in a different posture today than they would have been bad none of these discussions taken place or-I mean, you had these discussions going on, but had these cases moved, in effect, on a straight track and today they're more or less where they would have been in any case? (13:31:05) Ms. KuLKA. With respect to the criminal referrals, they were made before we came. They're in the hands of the Special Prosecutor and we have no relationship to them. Our understanding is that they're in the posture they would normally be in if the Justice were considering them. With respect to cur own investigation, I think we're on an accelerated path far greater than we might be in other circumstances. We are devoting a significant amount of resources and attention to this matter. Senator SARBANES. If anything, you have intensified the pace toward bringing action-in other words, speeded it up. You have not, as a consequence of all that's transpired, there would not have been an impediment or a negative impacting upon the case? Ms. KuLKA. That's correct. The CHAMMAN. You nodded in the affirmative, too, Mr. Ryan. Mr. RYAN, Yes, that's correct. Senator SARBANES. Of course, that doesn't answer the question that we will examine with other witnesses about their behavior, be- it " might have had different results. It's very important, I cause it think, to make the point here that, as far as impacting upon these cases, there has not been a negative impact upon them as you un- derstand it. Is that correct, Mr. Ryan? Mr. RYAN. That's correct. Senator SARBANES. Mr. Roelle, would ordinarily be told-not you or in ordinarily. What number of cases would you, have been told about a criminal referral? You say you got, I think the night before, a phone call telling you about this one. Has it happened in the past? Mr. ROELLE. It bad happened the previous September on the first criminal referral regarding Madison. 57 Senator SARBANES. That came out in the questioning that Senator Kerry engaged you in. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, and it did not happen other than when I was aware of the criminal referrals regarding Lincoln Savings Bank, but that was in early 1990. Senator SARBANES. Upon receiving this information, you felt you should take it to Mr. Altman. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator' SARBANES. Why was that? Mr. ROELLE. Because he was the CEO. Senator SARBANES. When you got the earlier information, had you taken it to Mr. Casey? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. In the earlier case, somehow or another, that information reached the White House because the Counsel to President Bush, Boyden Gray, sought additional information. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. That s my understanding, yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. Do you know bow it reached him? Mr. RoELLE. No, sir. (13:34:04)(End of tape #10057) Senator SARBANES, I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRmAN. Every Senator here that's sought a first round has bad one. Now I'm going to start a second round and we'll see how many people want to question this panel. Ms. Kulka, it's my understanding that you thought Roger Altman should recuse himself from the RTC's investigation in this area. Is that correct? Ms. KULKA. I thought that, for political reasons, sir, he should recuse himself, not for ethical or legal reasons. The CHAIRMAN. Did you communicate that to him? Ms, KULKA. I probably did. The CHAIRMAN. You probably did? Ms. KULKA. I really had several discussions on this with Mr. Ryan, Ms. Hanson, Mr. Altman, and I don't remember if I directly said-i probably asked it instead of said it. I probably would have put it in the context of why are you subjecting yourself and the RTC to the kinds of pressures that are occurring with this, and what is the positive aspect as you weigh the situation? The CHAIRMAN. Weighing all that, your view was that it made more sense for him to recuse himself. Was that your view. Ms. KULKA. From that perspective, yes. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ryan, do you remember Ms. Kulka indicating that, reflecting that in all these meetings she's just described? Mr. RYAN. I think Mr. Altman was well aware of her view. Whether there was ever precisely those words used or not, it's not clear. The CHAIRMAN. Did you have a view? Mr. RYAN. I had the same view.