August 1, 1994 - Part 2
August 1, 1994 - Part 2
(13:25:45) The CHAIRMAN. Let's not confuse these things. There's a question as to whether they call you or you call them. Ms. KuLKA. It could be either, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I know. But the question is who initiates it? Ms. KULKA. It depends on the circumstance. I couldn't-it could be appropriate in either case, depending on the The CHAIRMAN. If you felt that-you've just testified-let's not skate all over the place here. You've just testified in this instanceyour time had expired. Senator DOMENICI. Now it's expired. Could I finish with my line of questioning, sir? The CHAIRMAN. You didn't think it was something you should do and that's why you decided not to do it? Ms. KULKA. That's correct. Senator DODD, It was a question of timing? Ms. KuLKA. That's absolutely right. Senator DODD. Not as to the appropriateness of it, whether or not there was a contact, just the timing of the contact? Ms. KULKA. It was the timing and what I thought the inferences were that didn't need to be drawn. Senator HATCH. Mr. Chairman The CHAIRMAN. Very briefly, and then I have to yield to Senator Sarbanes. Senator HATCH. I just have these final few questions in this line of questioning that I think might shed some light on it, if I could. Jumping ahead a bit, the Banking Committee deposed Ms. Hanson and in her deposition, Ms. Hanson testified sometime around 55 February 24 or 25, 1994, she contacted you to "inquire" as to how Mr. Stephens had been hired. Do you recall that conversation? Ms. KuLKA. I don't have a specific recollection of it, sir. Senator HATCH. Could I just ask two questions of Mr. Ryan a then The CHAIRMAN. I don't want to say no to you, Senator Hatch, but we're over the time period. Senator HATCH. It will only take a second. The CHAIRMAN. If it's a follow-up to this and it's only a minute or so I'd be happy to oblige because I don't want to be arbitrary to any Senator'. Senator HATCH. Mr. Ryan, in response to an earlier question, you stated that you do not recall informing anyone at the RTC that you would prefer to be able to say that Whitewater did not cause a loss to Madison. Just to be clear, do you deny ever having made such a statement? Mr. RYAN. I don't recall ever having made that statement. Senator HATCH. You don't deny it then? Mr. RYAN. I don't remember ever 'having made that statement Senator HATCH. Is it possible you could have made that state- ment? Mr. RYAN, I don't know. Senator HATCH. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRmAN. Thank you. Senator Sarbanes. OPENING COMMENTS OF SENATOR PAUL S. SARBANES Senator SARBANES. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. First of all, Ms. Kulka, I want to be clear on this last point that was being discussed with Senators Hatch, Riegle, and Dodd. The RTC does have conversations with the attorneys for private parties that are involved in matters that you're examining, does it not? Ms. KuLKA. Yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. That's an ordinary occurrence, I would assume. Ms. KuLKA. Yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. In fact, some reference was made to getting tolling agreements, and I don't see how you could get a tolling agreement if you, didn't discuss it with the attorney for the private party from whom om you were trying to get the agreement. Wouldn't that be the case? Ms. KuLKA. That's correct. Senator SARBANES. So,, you and Mr. Ryan, in this instance when You said you didn't think such a conversation should take place, it wasn't because you have a general position that such conversations Ought not to occur, but it was because you thought the timing of this was premature, I think, was the word you used, Mr. Ryan. Is that correct? Mr. RYAN, That's correct, Senator SARBANES. I want to ask you, let me first try to get these so-called criminal referrals into perspective. I take it the RTC refers matters to the Justice Department for possible criminal action and I think, Mr. Roelle, you said in those instances where criminal activity In have occurred. Is that correct? gay Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. 56 Senator SARBANES. I gather the standard for a referral is lower than even probable cause. Would that be correct? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. In bow many cases in which the RTC makes such a referral to the Justice Department for possible action, does the Justice Department end up, in fact, bringing an indictment in a criminal case? Do you have any idea, just a rough percentage? 7 Mr. RoELLE. A rough percentage, I would think, would probably be less than 10 percent, perhaps even less than 5 percent. Senator SARBANES. Less than 5 percent. So there's-in other words, there are a great many referrals that are made, but a relatively few number of cases on which the Department of Justice then proceeds. Is that correct? Mr. ROELLE. That's correct, sir. Senator Sarbanes. I guess I want to ask Mr. Ryan and Ms. Kulka this question, Of course, we're looking very carefully into these discussions and contacts that took place, and we'll be examining other witnesses that will come before us this week with respect to those matters. I'm interested to know from you, though, as the Acting Director of the RTC and the General Counsel, if any of the referrals involving Madison are in a different posture today than they would have been bad none of these discussions taken place or-I mean, you had these discussions going on, but had these cases moved, in effect, on a straight track and today they're more or less where they would have been in any case?