August 1, 1994 - Part 2
August 1, 1994 - Part 2
(12:10:25) Mr, KATSANOS. If I recall the early bird you're referring to and the E-mail, the E-mail was in October and de September 30, 19939 early bird did not refer to that particular E-mail. It preceded it. Senator KERRY. That's accurate. No, it just referred to the reporters inquiries. That's all I'm saying. Mr. KATSANOS. That's correct. Senator KERRY. Right. That's all I'm trying to establish. It's in the public domain, is my point. I'm not diminishing the fact that the information went. That is of serious concern. I want to make it very clear. There are two parts that I see here. One is of great concern to all of us on the Committee, and that is what Mr. Altman and Ms. Hanson did with information and what the impact was on you. I clearly want to pursue that line of questioning. But, before I do, Senator Faircloth had an exchange with you suggesting that this is the first time ever that information has gone to the White House. Let me ask you, Mr. Roelle, while you were Vice President at the RTC in 1992 and 1993, was there any other criminal referral besides the Madison that you were told about? Mr. ROELLE. In 1992? Senator KERRY, Correct. Mr. ROELLE. Besides Madison? Senator KERRY. That's correct. Mr. RoELLE. No. 31 Senator KERRY. So this is the only referral that you were informed of in your capacity as Vice President. Correct? Mr. ROELLE. In 1992, yes, Senator KERRY. Correct. And there are hundreds of criminal referrals sent by the RTC to the Department of Justice, are there not? Mr. ROELLE. That's correct, sir. Senator KERRY, But only this one was singled out and told to you. Correct? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator FERRY. And this one happened to involve the Clintons in some respect, which we're not going into in great detail. Correct? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator KERRY. That happened while President Bush was still in office. Isn't that accurate? Mr. ROELLE. That's right. Senator KERRY. In fact, it was during the campaign, was it not? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator KERRY. So, even during the Bush Administration, this case was treated differently from other cases, was it not? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator KERRY. With respect to that, when did you first learn there was a criminal referral pertaining to Madison Guaranty at the RTC? Mr. ROELLE. I believe it was in September 1992. Senator KERRY. About 6 weeks before the election. Correct? Mr. ROELLE. Approximately, yes, sir. Senator KERRY. Who told you about this referral? Mr. ROELLE. Mr. Dudeny. Senator KERRY. Why did he tell you? Mr. ROELLE. He came to me and said, 'This is a criminal referral we ire processing and I think you should know about it because it mentions the President, or a person that's running for the Presidency." Senator KERRY. It mentions a Presidential candidate? Mr. ROELLE. Right, Presidential candidate. Senator KERRY. It does not mention the President. Correct? Mr. ROELLE. That's correct. Senator KERRY. Did you inform anybody else? Mr. RoELLE. I did. Senator KERRY, You informed Mr. Albert Casey. Correct? Mr. ROELLE. That's correct. Senator KERRY. Who is Mr. Albert Casey? Mr. RoELLE. He was the CEO of the RTC. Senator KERRY. He was the CEO of the RTC under President Bush? Mr. ROELLE. That's correct. Senator KERRY. Did Albert Casey tell you that he would tell Someone about the criminal referral? Mr. RoELLE. He said that lie felt he needed to tell the oversight board. Senator KERRY. Who sits on the oversight board? Mt. ROELLE. The Secretary of the Treasury is the Chairman. Senator KERRY. That would have been Mr, Nick Brady. Correct? 32 Mr. ROELLE. That's correct. Senator KERRY. And who else? Mr. ROELLE. The Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. The Chairman of the FDIC. Senator KERRY. Did President Bush's Counsel, C. Boyden Gray, sit on the board? Mr. ROELLE. No, sir. Senator KERRY. So there would have been no reason for him to have learned it by virtue of the referral of Albert Casey. Correct? Mr. ROELLE. No, sir. Senator KERRY. But did you learn later that C. Boyden Gray had learned something about the criminal referral? Mr. RoELLE. Yes. Senator KERRY. Would you describe what you learned? Mr. ROELLE, Yes, sir. I don't know when it was in relation to when I briefed Mr. Casey, but I was later told by Mr. Casey that he had had a phone call from the White House asking about the criminal referral. I indicated to Mr. Casey that it would be inappropriate to discuss it with the White House. Mr. Casey said, "OK I'll tell him that." We had a fairly long discussion about it. I told him that I thought the appropriate answer would be it is now in the hands of the Justice Department and it's not something that can be discussed. As far as I know, Mr. Casey said he would express that view and I was told that he did express that view. Senator KERRY. Did it disturb you that C. Boyden Gray, at the White House, had somehow learned of the criminal referral? Mr. ROELLE. Yes, sir. Senator KERRY. So your answer to Senator Faircloth was not, in fact, purely accurate. This is not the first time the White House has learned about it, is it? Mr. ROELLE. No. I think it was accurate, sir. He asked me, " Is this the first time that the RTC had briefed the White House?" And I said ' "To my knowledge, it is the first time. We did not brief the White House. )) Senator KERRY. But you had, in your discussion with Mr. Gray, you discussed Mr. ROELLE. I did not discuss anything with Mr. Gray. Senator KERRY, I understand. But the discussion that took place was a discussion with respect to the appropriateness or inappropriateness of their learning more. Correct? Mr. ROELLE. Absolutely.