Church Committee Hearings - CIA Director Richard Helms
Church Committee Hearings - CIA Director Richard Helms
Church Committee Hearings - CIA Director Richard Helms Tape 1
Church Committee Hearings - CIA Director Richard Helms
Shot opens to senate caucus room, members of press congregating, waiting for Senators to arrive and hearing to begin (00:01:31) JIM LEHRER greets viewers and shot changes to him and panel: PAUL DUKE, NPACT correspondent and DAVID WEISS (?), prominent author on the CIA - they are hosting the event from a hallway outside the caucus room - Lehrer introduces the hearing as day two, the topic will continue to be the CIA appropriated shellfish toxin - Duke introduces day's main witness RICHARD HELMS who was Director of CIA in 1970 when presidential order came to destroy the toxin - question will be whether he consciously disregarded presidential orders - Weiss is asked by Lehrer if Helms is the cool character he appears to be in court, Lehrer likens him to James Bond (00:01:59) The correspondents wait for the committee to convene and their support crew to adjust their set up - funny exchange between Lehrer and crew member - shot stays on court room (00:04:00) Lehrer introduces the program and panel again while the shot stays on the people congregating in the court room - there is a further wait for the committee to convene and Lehrer tells us two minutes until air - shot flips between panel in hallway and the filling caucus room - correspondents note that none of the senators have not yet shown up (00:04:32) Lehrer again introduces the program and correspondent panel (00:08:17)
Church Committee Hearings - CIA Director Richard Helms
FRANK CHURCH introduces witnesses for the day starting with Richard Helms and THOMAS KARAMESSINES Deputy Director for Plans during the period in question - both men take the oath - Church confirms that the men have no opening statement, Church reads a letter from present director of the CIA Mr.WILLIAM COLBY (formerly listed as FRANK COLBY bu that can't be right) - Colby is worried he left wrong impression on committee about destroying records, no records were destroyed that were related to the shellfish toxin incident (00:08:40) F.A.O. Schwarz opens questioning of Helms, confirms specifics about their carreers with the CIA (00:12:04) Church asks the men to pull their microphones closer to themselves so they can be heard - humourous moment as the two are some what reminiscent of tweedle dee and dum (00:12:58) Schwarz asks if both men knew the CIA had capability to use biological and chemical weopons to be used offensively, as in to kill people -men confirm this - Schwarz asks if Helms connected relationship between their biological and chemical weopons capabilities with ARMY's development program at Fort Deitrich - Helms tells the court it was a partnership between the CIA and army -Schwarz asks both men if they thought Fort Deitrich was the only supplier of such materials and both essentially agree (00:13:10)
Church Committee Hearings - CIA Director Richard Helms
Schwarz asks both men if they knew that Nixon had concluded to renounce program of chemical and biological weopons and wished for the materials to be destroyed - both answer yes - Helms says that when order was given that he and deputy agreed to terminate the program at Fort Deitrich and all materials were to be returned to Fort Deitrich for destruction (00:16:05) Schwarz introduces a draft memorandum to the court that was sent from Caremissinus to Helms which Caremussinus claims he never wrote and that Helms claims he never saw (00:19:00) Helms clarifies that Nixon was concerned with getting rid of biologicial weopons in war or war time - to destroy populations - to which Schwarz reponds with the question then did you think the president's order was not to be applied to the CIA - Helms says no (00:20:30)
Church Committee Hearings - CIA Director Richard Helms
Schwarz asks if there was a study group formed by the National Security Council upon order - Helms responds yes - Schwarz asks Helms if he told this group that CIA had stocks of biological weopons - Did you tell Kissinger or Nixon - No (00:21:06) Schwarz wants to know if Helms ever told Nixon that the CIA had a program which included offensive biological weopons - Helms says he can't recall but Nixon should have known having long been in the White House as both president and vice president (00:22:39) Church wants to know why if there is a statute that the director of the CIA report to the national secrutiy council did Helms not tell them about the CIA's possession of biological weopons stock - Helms responds he would not give such information to the staff of the National Security Council - Church responds the staff represented the interests of president (00:23:50)
Church Committee Hearings - CIA Director Richard Helms
***Tape skips back to footage above at 23:50 (00:27:00) Church introduces memorandum directed toward Helms that says the United States has renounced the use and stock piling of chemical and biological weopons, Dr. GORDON testified yesterday that he did not receive this order and would have destroyed toxins had he received it - why wasn't this order given to him asks two men? Helms responds that Dr. GOTLEIB, someone else, should have iniated the destruction order, that he assumed all the toxins were at Fort Deitrich anyway, and also the documents were top secret so only so many people could see it - Church shoots this down as a poor excuse (00:28:35) Helms gets a laugh by saying he assumed toxins destroyed in his agency upon reading about the country's renouncement of its chemical and biological weopons program in the paper (00:33:20) Karamessines claims Dr. Gotleib did carry out instructions (00:33:37) Church aren't you shocked then to find out later that your orders weren't followed - Karamessines answers he was "not shocked, but disappointed" - Church why weren't you shocked - Karamessines "I don't shock easily" (00:34:42)
Church Committee Hearings - CIA Director Richard Helms
Senator TOWER questions Helms as to what a prudent director of the CIA would have done to ensure the following of the order - Helms responds he considers himself prudent and shared Karamessines' disappointment that their verbal orders had not been followed, otherwise the CIA was tight operation - Tower asks it was usual practice to issue orders by word of mouth - Helms says this is the best way to execute secret actions (00:36:05) PIcture changes to zoom of NY times photograph of Church holding up dart gun discussed in yesterday's hearings (00:39:42)Back to hearing room, Tower asks if Helms ever called for use of the dart gun - Helms responds no, yesterday was the first time he had seen the dart gun (00:40:20) Senator WALTER MONDALE asks if Helms stands by Dr. Gordon's testimony that he did not destroy poison because it did not fall under the Presidential order's meaning of chemical and biological toxins and that the order ran to the department of defense and not the CIA - Helms says Gordon made a valid case and Helm's himself can't make the call as he is not a scientist as to what would fall under the order as a toxin that should be destroyed - Mondale asks then how could you consider it a breech that he did not obey orders - Helms says he had not yet consulted Dr. Gordon on where the toxins fell classification wise (00:41:57)
Church Committee Hearings - CIA Director Richard Helms
Mondale asks Helms where the authority is drawn to develop these sort of weopons - Helms responds that all he knew was that as an intelligence agency they need to have all possible defensive and offensive weopons tells stories of KGB uses of poisons including one about a KGB agent killed two Ukranians who were part of a dissident movement with a poison delivery device (00:46:31) Mondale asks Karamessines what happened that the your order was countermanded - It wasn't countermanded it just wasn't followed (00:50:52) Mondale asks who or what is P-600 - Karamessines answers he's never heard of it before (00:51:56) Senator BAKER refers back to Colby's letter read at the beginning of the trial, records were destroyed, which ones were they and why were they destroyed - Helms doesn't know what if any records would have been destroyed in 1973 -Baker asks chairman that Colby either return to hearing or write something to clarify this - Church says the committee will follow up in an appropriate way (00:52:11) Senator WALTER HUDDLESTON asks Helms about P-600 - Helms says he's never heard of it but suggest it was the army's label -Huddleston asks if the men would be be surprised if the dart gun had been used on people or dogs - Their response is dogs-no, people-yes -Huddleston wants to know who gives authority for this device's use - Karamessines says it would have to come to him and never has such a request come (00:58:15)