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August 2, 1994 - Part 12
(01:35:23) Mr. ALTMAN. I think I've already answered that but I'll be happy to do it again. His advice, as usual was awfully good, was it's a personal decision. I think he knew it wasn't legally or ethically required. It's a personal decision, If I were you I'd do it and the essence of what he said then was because it's in your self-interest, something like that. Senator GRAMM. Did you say, as Ms. Hanson says you did, that you were going to do it and you were going to set up the meeting? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't remember exactlv what I said. I may well have said that's a good idea or I probably should recuse myself I may well have done that. Obviously, when I brought it up, 24 hours later, I had decided to say what I said, which was that I've been advised to recuse myself and I intended to take it. Senator GRAMM. Mr. Altman, I'm going to take this up, because it's even embarrassing to me. The point here is not that you brought it up, not that you talked about bringing it up, but that ou said under oath tonight that it was extemporaneous or you blurted it out, and et I have given you two sworn statements that contradict that, and then I have given you a briefing paper. I don't know about other people, but when I go to meetings and somebody's given me a briefing paper, I look it over before I go. Did you ever look at this briefing paper? 553 Mr. ALTMAN. I think I had it on the way to the meeting, Senator DODD. That's bow I do- Senator GRAMM. Did you ever look at the briefing paper? Mr. ALTMAN. I said I think I bad it on the way to the meeting. Senator GRAMM. You had it. Mr. ALTMAN. I'm sorry. On the way to the meeting or going to the meeting, I Senator GRAMM. Let me go to my other questions. I just thought that that should be cleared up. Let me set the environment we're in, because this I see as an important question, and Im just confused about what the answer is. You've got all these people who are, saying all these things about recusal and its consequences, that it's all a matter of public record. Nussbaum is saying that, Ellen Kulka was considered too tough. Steiner is saying in his pros and cons for recusal that the White House would be left defenseless, Steiner is saying in his diary that ou are under intense pressure. Forty-one Republican Senators have signed a letter saying you should recuse yourself Mr. ALTMAN. No, Senator. The word "recusal," I believe we can pull it outright here, I don't believe the word "recusal" appeared in that letter. Why don't we pull it out? Senator GRAMM. OK. In the meantime, strike it, it's not essen- tial. Senator DODD. Well, it is kind of essential. Those are the kind of things that get said in a hearing at 1:30 in the morning. People make those charges. It becomes a litany. Let's see the letter. I'd like to see the letter. Senator GRAMM. OK If I may go on, let me pose my question while we're looking at it; is that reasonable? Mr. ALTMAN. We'll try to find it here and see if we have it. Senator GRAMM. I withdraw the letter, pending finding it, Now, that is the general environment. You decide on February 25 to recuse yourself. Did your recusal have anything to do with Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan case? I think I've heard you say several times it had nothing to do with Madison Savings & Loan, and I'd just like a yes or no answer. Did it or not? Mr. ALTMAN. What I keep saying, Senator, and I just think this is the right way to put it-I'm sorry, I guess I don't see it the same way you do. What I keep saying is whether I recused myself or whether I didn't could not have had any bearing on the investigation so in my view depending on bow you use the word "case" Senator GRAMM. I'm going to have to stop you. I didn't ask anything related to that. You can answer your own questions on your own time. Senator KERRY. If I can say, Mr. Chairman, in deference Senator GRAMM. I'm sorry, I don't yield and what I am proposing here is perfectly reasonable. Senator KERRY. I'm not trying to take your time. Senator GRAMM. I'm saying you recused yourself, OK The question is I'm asking you, not did it make any difference, but did your recusal have anything to do with Madison Savings & Loan, Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan? 554 Mr. ALTMAN. First of all, Senator, about 30 seconds ago, you said did it have anything to do with the case, My answer is it couldn't have had any bearing whatsoever on the case so, no, not really. You can. Senator GRAMM. Did you ever recuse yourself on any other case? Mr. ALTMAN. Sure-oh, I'm sorry. I've recused myself on -matters, I don't think on any other case. Senator GRAMM. So this is the only S&L case youve re yourself on. Mr. ALTMAN. I'd have to go back and check but it might been. Senator GRAMM. Why did you recuse yourself? Mr. ALTMAN. I recused myself because there could be an appearance, only an appearance, but there could be an appearance of conflict. There was no real conflict, but there could be an appearance of it. Senator GRAMM. OK, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dodd--Senator Kerry was also Mr. ALTMAN. Incidentally, Senator Gramm, if I can just say The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dodd. Mr. ALTMAN---I pulled out the letter you, the one you referred to and this is the one 41 Republican Senators and there is the word "recusal" is not in here.
Yosemite Falls
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Mirror Lake Mostly cine spl.First is good but dark
August 2, 1994 - Part 12
(01:40:32) The CHAIRMAN. We will make it a part of the record without ob- jection. Senator GRAMM. Could I have a copy of it so I could look at it? Senator DODD. Mr. Chairman, just a couple of points of observation. if I may. One, regarding the Jay Stephens matter, I think the record ought to reflect that there was an exchange and apparently phone call-and Mr, Altman, you correct me if I'm wrong here phone call from people at the White House expressing their disappointment over the manner in which you recused ourself and in the context of that conversation raised the issue of Jay Stephens;. is that not correct? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator DODD. And that subsequent to that conversation or during that conversation you expressed your views as to the wisdom of trying to do anything about getting Jay Stephens removed as the' attorney of record; is that not correct. Mr, ALTMAN. I think what I said was A, Outside Counsel decisions do not come to me and B, therefore, if be has been hired, that is it. Senator DODD. And that was it and any attempt to remove him would be an unwise move? Mr. ALTMAN. I don't think it went beyond that. I mean I just said that's it. I don't believe they asked me to do anything about it. I don't believe they did, But I said that's it. Senator DODD. Now, with regard to these briefing papers and the February 2 meeting, I'm somewhat mystified as to why people are making more of this than not. I suppose what some would like you to do here is just agree with them and see it as they interpret itI can understand that. But we can stay here Mr. ALTMAN. I think if I sit here long enough, I'll agree with almost anything that's said. 555 Senator DODD. Maybe that's part of what-someone is trying to achieve here. And for the life of me, I don't think it made any difference one way or the other on this matter, but nonetheless, as I understand it, the talking points were prepared by Ms. Hanson; is that not correct? Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator DODD. Ms. Hanson's recommendation to you was to recuse yourself. Mr. ALTMAN. Yes, sir. Senator DODD. You stated earlier today that one of the interpretations of her putting this on there is that she was, maybe, trying to push the issue along a little bit so you might do it earlier rather than later. Mr. ALTMAN. I think she wanted to give me a prod, yes. Senator DODD. You said that hours ago it seems to me, in this hearing. You made that point. Mr. ALTMAN. I think so. Senator SARBANES. I think several hours ago--can I make an observation? Senator DODD. I'll be glad to yield, Senator SARBANES. It seems to me often talking points are pared, you don't use all the talking points. Senator DODD. I was just going to make that point. I get them every day and I presume my staff and the people who work bard on it would like me to read every word and recite every wonderful observation they have put in it, but God forbid I did and I say that with all due respect to my staff, Usually I'd love to tell them I took them home every night and read them in detail and was fully prepared every morning. What usually happens is that I'm racing between meetings, I'm grabbing at my band, I'm trying to speed read the thing to get the major points. If I know at feast the group I'm talking to, I consider it a victory and I suspect I'm not much different than most people in this town. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dodd, the Special Counsel here keeps giving me talking points and I keep not using them. Senator DODD. The suggestion somehow that someone in this town would take talking points and go down and adhere to them religiously, taking every bullet and reciting it verbatim is just ridiculous. I don't know of anyone who does that nor should they for that matter. Again I've listened to that point over and over and over again here, and now' at a 101/2, 11-hour harangue. Let me state as an observation and I made the points earlier, and I think Senator Boxer did it as well. We're all asked to draw conclusions and certainly facts are important and testimony is im- ortant, but I too note, Mr. Chairman, that this witness has now been with us going on 12 hours. In some ways this is almost like an inquisition rather than a bearing. But the fact of the matter is, you have to look at the totality of everything and I would be more impressed if at some point in the last 10 hours or so, that someone on the other side would have recognized your contributions, Mr. Altman, over the years. I made the Point earlier, you served in two Administrations, and have been confirmed unanimously by the U.S. Senate on two different occa- 556 sions. You know many of the people at this table. You've worked with them over the years. That's not to suggest that you ought to be forgiven or Pardoned if you've done something wrong, but to have some sense of propor. tionality, some sense of humanity in all of this as we consider people. You mentioned earlier it was your 9-year-old son's birthday today. I would Just tell you, from this one Senator's perspective some day he'll look at this testimony. Some day he'll read it and it's sad that you were not able to spend the day with him. This Senator's observation after almost 12 hours is that his father did a damn fine job. Some day I hope be-recognizes that and I think he will.
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Nevada Fall (front view)
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