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August 2, 1994 - Part 12
(01:30:31) Senator GRAMM. If I can reclaim my time, since it's 1:30 a.m. The point is tonight, tonight, when Senator D'Amato asked you about whether you planned to mention recusal whether you had any idea of talking about it, you said, "no." In fact your words were-and I've shifted the paper around here that I had them written on and lost them-that it was extemporaneous and you blurted it out. That's the statement you made tonight. That was part of your defense for what you said on the 24th, your argument that you had compartmentalized the matter in your mind, the assertion that you were only talking about statute of limitations because that's all you intended to talk about. You didn't intend to talk about recusal and therefore you didn't have to answer Mr. DAmato's question. If you wanted to make what you say logical that would be it. Let me go on with my point, Mr. ALTMAN. I'd like to respond to that, I'm sorry. I just said to Senator Riegle that sometime between setting up the meeting and actually bringing up the subject, I resolved to bring it up. Now I ha en to think that it was more or less Senator GRAMM. You said it was extemporaneous, or that you blurted it out. Mr. ALTMAN. I happen to think it was more or less at the time I brought it up. Perhaps it was somewhat earlier. I don't know whether it was an hour before or 10 minutes before or 2 or 3 hours before. Senator GRAMM. I accept that as your statement. You revised extemporaneous" and "blurting it out." Ben Nye in sworn testimony says the following; this is the question: "To your recollection, did anyone indicate that the issue of recusal would also be addressed, be addressed when Mr. Altman contacted the White House?" Now this is about the meeting on the 2nd. His answer is, "I believe it was planned to be discussed." Now here is what Senator DODD. Who says that? Senator GRAMM. This is Ben Nye. Here is what Jean Hanson :says: "Mr. Altman"-this i's at a February 1 meeting at 12:45 p.m. in Senator Bentsen's office. This is 1 day before you go to this meeting "Mr. Altman told Secretary Bentsen that he bad decided !hat he would recuse himself from the decisionmaking on the civil investigation and that I had recommended that be do so. The Sec- who would make decisions and Mr. Altman said it would be Ellen Kulka and Jack Ryan." Senator DODD. Can I ask in colleague, Phil, I mean seriously hasn't this ground been covered? Senator GRAMM. No, it has not been covered. I'm making a point lid I think it is the point of this hearing. Then she goes on and says--this is Jean Hanson at this meeting at 12:45 p.m. on February 1--she says, 552 the Secretary said that it sounded to him like this was something that Mr. Altman had to do. Mr. Altman said that he thought he should tell the White House before they learned it from some other source. I told him that if be was going to to the White House I thought I should come along and he agreed it Now, then she prepares talking points for you, and the last ing point is recusal. Here is my point. If this was extemporaneous if it had never been planned, that conflicts with other testimony. Ben Nye says he believes he was told recusal was going to subject matter. Jean Hanson says that recusal was discussed at a meeting the day before, and that you said you were going to do it, you said you were going to set up the meeting, and that she said she wanted to be there when you did it. Senator Bentsen' agreed you ought to do it. Then you have a briefing paper to take' with you, saying that you are going to do it. It seems to me that this casts some doubt on this assertion that this was somehow spontaneous. Now maybe it doesn't to you- Mr. ALTMAN. Senator Senator GRAMM. -but it does to me. Mr. ALTMAN. Senator, just a moment ago I responded to Senator Riegle by saying that sometime during the 24-hour period, give or take 24 hours, between calling Mr. McLarty and going over to the White House, I decided to bring it up. Now I happen to think it was just before the meeting, but maybe I'm not recollecting it right. Senator GRAMM. Was it brought up the day before with Secretary Bentsen? Mr. ALTMAN. I went to see Secretary Bentsen and I asked for his advice. If I had already known what I was going to do, I don't think I would have walked into the office-and that was within 24 hours of the meeting roughly-and asked for his advice. I don't know what moment in that 24-hour period Senator GRAMM. What did he say, what was his advice?
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