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August 3, 1994 - Part 8
(19:35:28) We had a discussion going back and forth earlier when I was here between one of our Members and Mr. Eggleston about the fact that everybody knew that Mr. Altman was in phantom recusal. Everybody knew that he was going to recuse himself if anything happened. Everybody knew that these civil servants below him were the kind of people that weren't going to let him get away with any politic's or hanky-panky. Everybody knew that, but the problem is whatever kind of logic you try to impose on top of this-and I think the natural inclination of the human mind is to try to impose logic-the bottom line is the facts show clearly and convincingly that tremendous exertions of effort were undertaken to prevent this Committee, and perhaps the world, from knowing that the recusal issue was being discussed, Mr. Ickes asked Ms. Hanson, "how many people were told you were discussing it? It's good that it's a limited number. We don't want people to know about it." We have diaries written from the heart that Mr. Altman was told that it was unacceptable to recuse himself. He was under intense Pressure, we re told. The problem is, if it didn't matter, what was all this about? I know you can't answer that question, but I'll just give my opinion It is clear to any objective observer that Mr. -Altman desperately did not want this to be known and was willing to risk being in a position where he could be accused of being less than honest-if it were 12:00 last night I would have said "lying"-to a of Congress, knowing that that is a violation of law. 150 And I think that any reasonable person has to give that heavy weight in this discussion. This whole idea of phantom recusal--this whole idea of, well, he really recused himself but he didn't want to tell anybody about it. He didn't want them to know that he had recused himself. I know we can say those things. I know it's convenient to talk about them, and I know this is the Congress and there's a different standard of language we have here than in the real world, but nobody believes that. Mr. KLEIN. Senator Gramm, can I respond to that? Senator GRAMM. Yes, sir. Mr. KLEIN. I can't put myself in Mr. Altman's mind, but I think I can say something for me and my colleagues here, and that is as far as the White House was concerned, I think the evidence is quite strong that we were not trying to hide this fact of recusal, and what I mean by that is, Mr. Eggleston has testified, and there's no dispute about it, he called the day before the hearing with respect to the recusal. Senator GRAMM. Mr. Klein, I don't in any way dispute that. The person who tried to hide this, desperately tried to hide it, was Mr, Altman. He went to incredible lengths to hide it and, in fact, produced a situation where now there is clear and convincing evidence that he knowingly in that March letter withheld very important information. And while I'm on that subject, let me say that we've had many people testify before this Committee, but if I were in the White House, you're exactly the kind of person I would want to be a counsel for me. I appreciate the direct way you answer questions. I appreciate the way you get to the bottom line. And my guess is, had Mr, Altman had people like you working directly for him or had he been a person like you, we wouldn't even be here. Now, I want to go back to you, Mr. Eggleston, to discuss this meeting on February 3rd, a meeting we know almost nothing about. You were there. We know, at least by sworn testimony, that Maggie Williams was the person that Roger Altman called, and we' have her recollection of the call: "Well, Roger called, and he said. to me, I decided not to recuse. And he said, I want to tell some people in the White House that." I guess he thought it was going to be glorious news. And then she says-which is very interesting to me "I remember thinking to myself, so tell him. Big deal." She didn't literally say "big deal." But people out on the street would have said "big deal." This is a sworn statement. You don't say "big deal" in a sworn statement. And then he said that he's on his way to his meeting and get some people together, because I want to come over and tell them. Was the tenor of that meeting that Mr. Altman came in and said, I have glorious news, I've decided not to recuse myself.?
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August 3, 1994 - Part 8
(19:40:40) Mr. EGGLESTON. Sir, my recollection is that-I can't remember how I got to Maggie Williams' office, although it's about 10 yards from Mr. Nussbaum's office. It's in the same general location of the west wing. Senator GRAMM. You walked over there, though? Mr. EGGLESTON. I must have-let me just say also I don't think that Mr. Altman was thinking about meeting 151 Senator GRAMM. Let me go back-Mr. Altman came in. You were there. What did he say and how did he say it? Mr. EGGLESTON. He came in. He did not sit down. As I recall, he stood right inside the door, closed the door and said, quietly without any particular emphasis, I've decided not to recuse or I've decided not to recuse for now-I can't quite remember which one and turned around and walked out. I think he was Senator GRAMM. That's all he said, he came in and said, I've decided not to recuse, and then he walked out. Was there applause? Mr. EGGLESTON. Sir, I think he walked out and the meeting-if you call it a meeting, no one was sitting-lasted about 10 seconds. There was no applause. Senator GRAMM. No one said a word? Mr. EGGLESTON. I do not remember anyone saying anything back to him. I don't think he was there long enough. Senator GRAMM. But people were still there when Ms. Hanson showed up, who had been beeped to come out of her luncheon. Mr. EGGLESTON. Ms. Hanson showed up within seconds of the time Mr. Altman left. Senator GRAMM. Is that not the meeting where Mr. Ickes says to her, how many people know about this recusal thing, and she said three, and he said, well, that's good we don't want it to be known? Is that the meeting where that happened? Mr. EGGLESTON. Let me just make sure I'm clear about what I remember about it. The CHAIRMAN. Why don't you go ahead and finish this answer. Time is up and we 're going to continue on here, but complete the answer. Mr. EGGLESTON. My recollection is that Mr. Ickes said, how many people at Treasury know about this. I thought she said four or five and I don't remember anything after that. I think I was leaving. This was over. Nothing-we were all standing, when this took place, by the door, and I walked out. Senator D'AMATO. I think you gave a deposition where you indicated that you did hear the statement and that Mr. Ickes says, it's better that you forget that. Mr. EGGLESTON. Well, you know, I don't think that I did say that in my deposition. I think I was asked what I understood by that, and I think I understood by that that he meant that should be closely held, and I apologize if I'm misremembering but I think I didn't say that I had heard, actually, the rest of the conversation. I'm just doing my best. If that's wrong, Senator D'Amato, I'm sorry. The CHAIRMAN. We'll dig it out and check. Senator Sarbanes. Senator SARBANES. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Earlier, as I recall, I think a couple of you said that after the testimony of February 24th before the Committee, there was concern in the White House over two things: one, that Mr. Altman had not mentioned the recusal discussion that took place at the meeting of February 2nd; and second, that the earlier contacts had not been referenced. He' said there was only that one contact. Then there was a third thing which you said didn't rise to the level of who called the meeting. Why did you think that Altman knew about the earlier contacts? 152 Mr. EGGLESTON. Senator, it was our view-we did not think--I did not think that he knew about the earlier contacts) but it seemed to me, and it seemed to others in these meetings, including I think, Mr. Mein, that Mr. Altman was answering on behalf of the' RTC. The question that Mr. Bond-that Senator Bond had Posed to him was when the RTC informed the White House about the criminal referrals. It was our view that he was responding on behalf of his institution, that Ms. Hanson had been sitting at the hearing, and that he should at least-even if he did not know that he should at least for the record make clear that there had been these earlier-because he was not-he was responding on behalf of his institution and if he had information-if his institution had information that was contrary to what he thought, he still should be providing it to the Committee. That was our Senator SARBANES. That information was transmitted by Ms. Hanson from the Treasury. Was Altman, in effect, very carefully making a distinction there? Mr. EGGLESTON. I was not thinking about this issue that carefully. I knew she was sitting there. I think he was testifying in his role as head of the RTC, not in his role as Deputy Secretary of the Treasury. Senator SARBANES. Mr. Sloan, you were at the-at least partially this meeting with Nussbaum and Hanson on September 29th? Mr. SLOAN. Yes, sir. Senator SARBANES. Did you think Hanson was-did you think that Altman knew the information that Hanson was bringing to you? Mr. SLOAN, The only information that I can relate that bears on that on September 29th is that in the course of the fairly brief conversation, Ms. Hanson said that she thought that Roger Altman had sent Bernie some materials on this previously. That's the only reference to Roger Altman that I recall.
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