Advanced Search
Cane Cactus blossoms ***
Cane Cactus blossoms ***
August 3, 1994 - Part 6
(17:40:31) Mr. EGGLESTON. The only point I want to add, I've gone long enough, I didn't pick up the last of the points that Mr. Kerry mentioned, I wanted to make sure it wasn't because it was-I'd overlooked it. The issue that Mr. Nussbaum was actually talking about at the time was the perception of recusals-it was the perception of Rickie Tigert having to recuse. It was the perception for not, legal or ethical reasons. She had told, I think this Committee, that she would consult her ethics officer. And my recollection from the press really was that at least to some people that was not acceptable. And Mr- Nussbaum was concerned about a perception, sort of a domino effect, of how it would look if people who did not have a legal or ethical obligation to recuse themselves were nevertheless either being forced to recuse or maybe sua sponte start recusing themselves even though they had no action to take. That was the matter, that was the perception that Mr. Nussbaum was talking about at the time as it relates to this issue. Mr. KLEIN. Senator Riegle, if I can add to that because I had numerous discussions-it is my view as well and I think this is something that Senator Sarbanes raised before that when this started with Rickie Tigert and sort of the price of admission to her confirmation was that she had to agree to a blanket recusal, even no specific matter before her, because she was a "friend of the First Family's," when I know the extent of Rickie Tigert's familiarity 'With the First Family, This seemed to me the worst sort of politics, to be perfectly candid about it, that somehow this was going to be used against the President so that his nominees could not sit on any matter that Was in any way relevant to him and so the cost of all these matters Would be an extraction of recusal. So when Mr. E ggleston says that were important political considerations, there were important 122 political considerations and I at least was very concerned about the politics of the matter. And I think that The CHAIRMAN. In that sense. Mr. KLEIN. And so was Mr. Nussbaum in that sense. The CHAIRMAN, I think that's illuminating and I think it's impor. tant that you have the chance to say that. Senator Bennett. Senator BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do want to follow this direction because I think this issue is the nub of the matter. I will stipulate that you have correctly told us what Mr. Nussbaum was thinking and what his motives are. If that is indeed the case I would also say respectfully that Mr. Nussbaum is wrong. Mr. Nussbaum is seeing shadows that aren't there and that Mr. Nussbaum has missed the point. Let me respond to Mr. Eggleston's rather vigorous, if not passionate, statement that came over and over again. "He did not have a legal or ethical obligation to recuse himself' and he quoted all of the entities that came to that conclusion and said "this carries great weight with me." And that obviously it carried great weight with Mr. Nussbaum. Today we heard from Lloyd Bentsen who said he would have recused himself And Lloyd Bentsen has been around this town to understand the political ramifications, to understand the appearances, to understand all of these circumstances, if it had been his decision he would have recused himself Ms. Hanson, who was the General Counsel of the Treasury Department handling this, recommended that he recuse himself Ms. Kulka, who was the General Counsel of the RTC handling this, recommended that he recuse himself And my memory is that last night he said in hindsight he wishes he had done so and had not responded to pressure, suggestions, whatever in the White House. So I think Mr. Nussbaum carried his point in the meeting and I think subsequent events demonstrate that his point was wrong. However persuasive he may have been by virtue of his intelligence and articulateness or by virtue of his position as the leading White House figure at the meeting I think in hindsight it is very clear that Lloyd Bentsen's political instincts were the correct ones and Mr. Altman would have been far better served to have done it because this is the dilemma that he got himself into. And we go back now to Ms. Hanson's deposition. She talks about this how he announced he was going to recuse himself, how Mr. Nussbaum in her words got excited. And indeed Mr. Altman confirmed that last night in his testimony that Mr. Nussbaum was very excited. And then Ms. Hanson in her deposition, "the following morning Mr. Altman called me. He said he had spoken with Mr. McLarty the prior evening and Mr. McLarty had wanted to know what had taken place at the meeting. Mr. McLarty didn't attend the meeting. He also said that he had had a couple of other calls and that he had decided that he would not recuse himself for the time being. He said that he didn't believe that it made any difference to the outcome but that it made them happy," and "them" clearly is identified elsewhere as the White House.
Chiricahua Punch & Judy
Chiricahua Punch & Judy
Chiricahua National Monument
Chiricahua National Monument
Chiricahua National MonumentSign
Chiricahua National MonumentSign
DeChelly
DeChelly
White House (canyon DeChelly)
White House (canyon DeChelly)
DeChelly
DeChelly
Chiricahua National MonumentForty-five feet edited
Chiricahua National MonumentForty-five feet edited
Cactus **
Cactus **
National MonumentSenita + C.U.
National MonumentSenita + C.U.
Cactus **
Cactus **
Desert
Desert
Cactus & neddles, C.U.
Cactus & neddles, C.U.
Organ Pipe Cactus
Organ Pipe Cactus
August 3, 1994 - Part 6
(17:46:04) He was trying to have it both ways. He was trying to be in a position where he could say to Ms. Kulka, to the people in the RTC, to whatever ethics officers that would talk to him, look, I'm going 123 to have nothing to do with this, I've made my decision to turn the whole thing over to Kulka and he could say to the White House, that was clearly in a position of preferring him as the decisionmaker, hey, I have not recused myself, I'm still in the position, you don't need to worry. Now the whole matter became moot because events overtook it. But let us not pay so much attention to the fact that events overtook it that it did happen in this fashion at a time when no one was sure that events were going to overtake it. No one was sure that the Congress was going to extend the statute of limitations. No one was sure that Mr. Altman was in fact not going to be called upon to make a decision. So he had himself set up with the thing looking both ways, And that to me is the problem with the "de facto recusal." It got him into a political pickle, it got him into this kind of controversy, it got him before this Committee for however many hours it was, It created a disaster in his career and I think it is a very illustrative lesson that we will all learn. And when there comes a time when your gut tells you, regardless of what the specifics and technicalities of the law might be, when your gut tells you I better get out of this, you are far better off to follow your gut and stick with it and do not change it and do not say, well, I'll try to be de facto this way and de jure another way. You take your position and you stand with it and that's why Mr. Altman is in so much trouble and that's why this Committee is so exercised about it. Senator D'AMATO, I'd just like to make this point and I thank my friend for yielding. If you put it in writing that is the recusal and you can't take it back, and then you're not even in a position to hear anything or to discuss anything. But if you operated under the guise of a de facto, well, then notwithstanding I'm not going to make a final judgment is there and if there's a problem he can insert himself. And that's my observation and I think it kind of dovetails with Senator Bennett and I thank the Senator for yielding, Mr. KLEIN. Senator Bennett, can I respond to your comment, please? Senator BENNETT, Surely. Mr. KLEIN. I think there are two points you make and I think You want to be clear and we all want to be clear about it. One is a point that I think Mr. Cutler has already spoken to. I think it is well recognized at the White House that it would have been far Preferable if the meeting had not occurred on February 2nd, for some of the reasons in terms that you have laid out here. Mr. Eggleston was there. I was not. I would rely on his account to that meeting. Nevertheless that seems to me to be something Mr. Cutler, has already said. The second point you said, with respect, sir, I do not entirely agree with. I think the White House shouldn't be involved, but the issue of when a person recuses, you may be right that people recuse because in their gut they think they can't do the job. But People may recuse because of political pressure, because it is the easy thing to do. And I, at least, think that is inappropriate, I have practiced before many judges that I have known socially, gone to law school with and 1 consider friends, and I have never had a moment's doubt that they could decide fairly. And I find it interesting, 124 frankly, that Republicans all of a sudden see recusal as a universal panacea when for years they have been the party that opposed the Independent Counsel Law precisely on the ground that the Attorney General of the United States should be held accountable to make the tough calls. And I think we let people avoid the hard decisions. Now I do believe, and I don't want to leave any doubt that that decision belonged to Mr. Altman, should have been made by him and him alone, but I think it is a bad message to send to people that you cannot be fair and impartial and call them as you see them because you know somebody or you are friends with somebody. I strongly disagree with that suggestion, sir.
Last best
Last best
Navajo sheep herders
Navajo sheep herders
Totem PoleSome scratches, & silhouette
Totem PoleSome scratches, & silhouette
Misc. Storm apporch
Misc. Storm apporch
Rainbow brigdeDetail
Rainbow brigdeDetail
Desert-EditedSaguaro & fl. C.U.Sunset, Cactis,...
Desert-EditedSaguaro & fl. C.U.Sunset, Cactis, ect.