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August 3, 1994 - Part 6
(17:35:38) Mr. EGGLESTON. Well, let me try. You've raised a number of different issues. Let me see if I can touch on each of them. 120 My sense of this when I say that it was a-let me start this way. I did not think, I'm only one person who talked to Mr. Nussbaum, but I did not think that Mr. Nussbaum intended to affect the out. come of whatever it was that the RTC was going to decide. I never had that feeling. He had a personal problem with Ellen Kulka. She's been described as tough. It is fair to say that he thought that she was unreasonably tough. I don't know how much this Committee knows about the Kaye, Scholer matter, but from Mr. Nussbaum's perspective and from the perspective of most of the Bar that practiced against the OTS and the RTC, the decisions involving that law firm were all but extor. tion, that the OTS had all but shut down the law firm. In order to extort $40 million out of the law firm. That was the perception, and that this Committee will probably remember, I can't remember whether there were hearings after that or not. But there were certainly sort of seminars all around the country. He thought she was unreasonably tough. He had-my sense of this is that he had a personal problem with Ellen Kulka. I did not particularly think-and you can ask him and ask others-I did not particularly think that anybody else in the White House shared that. She was his opponent in a very bitter litigation. Very bitter litigation. And I think that he had a bitter reaction to her arising out of litigation. It was personal, but I think it was personal to Bernie Nussbaum. I do not think-I didn't hear anybody else in the White House say anything about Ellen Kulka or particularly care about Ellen Kulka- This, to me-and again, you'll talk to others, I can just give you my perception, this was a Bernie Nussbaum issue arising out of a litigation that he had had. I did not think that he had intended to affect the outcome. He had a real problem with her because he thought her judgment was bad in that particular matter. I do not think and I did not think that he thought somehow that by having- I did not think that he thought that the outcome would be different if Mr. Altman remained in his position. And I think that's true for a number of different reasons. One is that Mr. Altman said it. The second is that it's pretty clear to anybody in Washington and I think it was clear to me, at least at the time, if Mr. Altman had done anything whatsoever, anything whatsoever to interfere with the decision that Mr. Ryan and Ms. Kulka made, I think Ms. Kulka told you she wouldn't be at the RTC anymore. And I think we can imagine that she would do more than slip quietly into the night . I thought as a practical matter this "de facto recusal"--this was real, this was real even if Mr. Altman didn't want to do it, But I did not think that Mr. Nussbaum thought that there was going to be alteration in the outcome as a result of it. That was-that's just my perception at the time. You're going to ask others. The CHAIRMAN. Well, you know this is pregant for follow-up, but we're so far over the time I'm reluctant to do that. If we do-- Senator KERRY. Mr. Chairman, I'll even give up some of my next,: time or something. Could I just have the privilege of making a 30- second comment? The CHAIRMAN. Let me inquire on this side. Senator BENNETT. Mr. Chairman, I intend to follow this up as well, but I would be delighted to have. 121 Senator KERRY. Just a follow-up. Senator DAMATO. By the way, if I might make an observation, Mr. Chairman. It is moments like these that I think are important and I understand why the Chair ruled that we should give 10 minutes to our colleagues, the latitude to pursue a line of questioning. And I'm happy to yield to the gentleman. Senator KERRY. I don't want to play by any special rules, Senator DAMATO. I don't think it's a special rule. I think it's comity and I'm delighted. Senator KERRY- Let me say in fairness, and I say to my colleagues, I think the answer is a very important answer and a legitimate answer, but I'm even surprised that there isn't more statement. I think my colleagues have to be fair to understand that the White House was operating with the perception of an RTC that had already leaked and they had a perception of conceivable abuse here. In addition, there was a process of a demand for recusals going on that had no basis on legality or ethical standards. And so I think we have to really understand the dynamics and the full flavor of what was happening. And I simply want to say I think that when you do you begin to understand this a little bit better in fairness to what happened. eThe CHAIRMAN. Yes, Mr. Eggleston, you wanted to add a point and I'll let you do that.
MontereyPacific Grove (red flower carpet)
MontereyPacific Grove (red flower carpet)
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Mammallaria--Poor
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Preview Cassette 220193 Mojave Yucca
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Desert (Twigs and clouds last)
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Argentine *+Night-blooming Cereus
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White Cactus Blossoms(Argentine succulent?)
White Cactus Blossoms(Argentine succulent?)
Cactus blossom **+RedC.U. & l-s
Cactus blossom **+RedC.U. & l-s
Cane Cactus blossoms ***
Cane Cactus blossoms ***
August 3, 1994 - Part 6
(17:40:31) Mr. EGGLESTON. The only point I want to add, I've gone long enough, I didn't pick up the last of the points that Mr. Kerry mentioned, I wanted to make sure it wasn't because it was-I'd overlooked it. The issue that Mr. Nussbaum was actually talking about at the time was the perception of recusals-it was the perception of Rickie Tigert having to recuse. It was the perception for not, legal or ethical reasons. She had told, I think this Committee, that she would consult her ethics officer. And my recollection from the press really was that at least to some people that was not acceptable. And Mr- Nussbaum was concerned about a perception, sort of a domino effect, of how it would look if people who did not have a legal or ethical obligation to recuse themselves were nevertheless either being forced to recuse or maybe sua sponte start recusing themselves even though they had no action to take. That was the matter, that was the perception that Mr. Nussbaum was talking about at the time as it relates to this issue. Mr. KLEIN. Senator Riegle, if I can add to that because I had numerous discussions-it is my view as well and I think this is something that Senator Sarbanes raised before that when this started with Rickie Tigert and sort of the price of admission to her confirmation was that she had to agree to a blanket recusal, even no specific matter before her, because she was a "friend of the First Family's," when I know the extent of Rickie Tigert's familiarity 'With the First Family, This seemed to me the worst sort of politics, to be perfectly candid about it, that somehow this was going to be used against the President so that his nominees could not sit on any matter that Was in any way relevant to him and so the cost of all these matters Would be an extraction of recusal. So when Mr. E ggleston says that were important political considerations, there were important 122 political considerations and I at least was very concerned about the politics of the matter. And I think that The CHAIRMAN. In that sense. Mr. KLEIN. And so was Mr. Nussbaum in that sense. The CHAIRMAN, I think that's illuminating and I think it's impor. tant that you have the chance to say that. Senator Bennett. Senator BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do want to follow this direction because I think this issue is the nub of the matter. I will stipulate that you have correctly told us what Mr. Nussbaum was thinking and what his motives are. If that is indeed the case I would also say respectfully that Mr. Nussbaum is wrong. Mr. Nussbaum is seeing shadows that aren't there and that Mr. Nussbaum has missed the point. Let me respond to Mr. Eggleston's rather vigorous, if not passionate, statement that came over and over again. "He did not have a legal or ethical obligation to recuse himself' and he quoted all of the entities that came to that conclusion and said "this carries great weight with me." And that obviously it carried great weight with Mr. Nussbaum. Today we heard from Lloyd Bentsen who said he would have recused himself And Lloyd Bentsen has been around this town to understand the political ramifications, to understand the appearances, to understand all of these circumstances, if it had been his decision he would have recused himself Ms. Hanson, who was the General Counsel of the Treasury Department handling this, recommended that he recuse himself Ms. Kulka, who was the General Counsel of the RTC handling this, recommended that he recuse himself And my memory is that last night he said in hindsight he wishes he had done so and had not responded to pressure, suggestions, whatever in the White House. So I think Mr. Nussbaum carried his point in the meeting and I think subsequent events demonstrate that his point was wrong. However persuasive he may have been by virtue of his intelligence and articulateness or by virtue of his position as the leading White House figure at the meeting I think in hindsight it is very clear that Lloyd Bentsen's political instincts were the correct ones and Mr. Altman would have been far better served to have done it because this is the dilemma that he got himself into. And we go back now to Ms. Hanson's deposition. She talks about this how he announced he was going to recuse himself, how Mr. Nussbaum in her words got excited. And indeed Mr. Altman confirmed that last night in his testimony that Mr. Nussbaum was very excited. And then Ms. Hanson in her deposition, "the following morning Mr. Altman called me. He said he had spoken with Mr. McLarty the prior evening and Mr. McLarty had wanted to know what had taken place at the meeting. Mr. McLarty didn't attend the meeting. He also said that he had had a couple of other calls and that he had decided that he would not recuse himself for the time being. He said that he didn't believe that it made any difference to the outcome but that it made them happy," and "them" clearly is identified elsewhere as the White House.
Chiricahua Punch & Judy
Chiricahua Punch & Judy